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The Jews killed Jesus

Oberon

Well-Known Member
That leads me to believe there would already be a reason in place to pacify the Romans for the Jewish Christians.

The problem is that at least for Mark and possibly for Matthew it is difficult to say that a clear differentiation existed in the minds of the early christians between them and the jews. Jewish and christian self-identity in the early years of the church is a nebulous and complex thing. For one thing, being jewish, apart from the ethnic/nationalistic component, varied from town to town, even apart from various sects. The earliest christians seemed to have believed that they were the "true judaism" although that term (judaism) didn't have the meaning we give it. In fact, to even use the word "Jew" is problematic as a descriptive term for pre-rabbinic followrs of YHWH.

If you argue that Theudus got beheaded for a large gathering by the Jordon, then

Only I'm arguing something quite different. We have very few clues as to why Theudus was actually executed, there was something odd about the crowd that made it not simply a group of listeners or observers, namely that the crowd analabonta tas ktesies.


He had developed quite a following.

Following alone didn't result in execution. Their were plenty master/disciples groups in Judaism and in Greco-roman culture.

If the gospels (John excluded) are right, he had also just gone into the temple and thrown out the money changers which I am sure got their attention.
I'm sure that got the attention of the jewish priesthood, and, as a number of scholars believe, I think this was perhaps the single action which must definitely resulted in Jesus' death.

However, we are talking about a Jewish temple, which the roman authority was at best neutral, and often hostile, to. I find it hard to believe they would care if Jesus the Jew went into a Jewish temple and upset the jewish priesthood.

but it still seems to me that it was written to make the Jewish elite look bad and to pacify the Romans by making them look good.

Going back to what I said at the start of this post:

While I agree that the gospels inaccurately portray Pilate's attitude (and therefore roman attitude in general) towards Jesus and his followers, and attempt to spread the "guilt" for Jesus arrest wider among the Jews than is accurate, I think the reason for this has more to do with the tension between what began as a jewish sect and what was begining to be a seperate religion.
 

Smoke

Done here.
TahaN i am very surprised you are using new testament quotes as evidence here when you dont beleive them to be true anyway.
The Qur'an explicitly says that the Jews tried to kill Jesus, but didn't.

Why let mere details get in the way of the central anti-Semitic theme?
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Didnt Jesus say something like Father forgive them they know not what they do?

Why cant we accept He meant all of us?..Including I think almost all of His disciples who ran and hid because they were afraid?

Love

Dallas
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
Uhm, that includes the resurrection.

No, it doesn't. The resurrection may be an actual event that happened. However, the methodology employed by historians is used to reconstruct what most likely happened in history. Miracles are by definition the opposite of this. They may happen, they may not, but a historian, working within historical methodology, cannot confirm whether a miracle took place.
 
Actually it was the ancestors of the Christians that killed the Messiah not the jews.

Matthew 20:19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to mock, to scourge, and to crucify

Mark 10:33 “...They will condemn him to death, and will deliver him to the Gentiles. 10:34 They will mock him, spit on him, scourge him, and kill him.

Luke 18:32 For he will be delivered up to the Gentiles, will be mocked, treated shamefully, and spit on. 18:33 They will scourge and kill him.

Acts 4:25 who by the mouth of your servant, David, said, ‘Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing? 4:26 The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take council together, against the Lord, and against his Messiah.’ 4:27 “For truly, in this city against your holy servant, Yeshua, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your council foreordained to happen.

This is what is said about the ancestors of the Gentiles

Luke 21:24 ...Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Isaiah 26:10 Let favor be shown to the wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness. In the land of uprightness he will deal wrongfully, and will not see the LORD’s majesty. 26:11 The LORD, your hand is lifted up, yet they don’t see; but they will see your zeal for the people, and be disappointed. Yes, fire will consume your adversaries.

Jonah 2:8 Those who regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy

As for the Christ of the Gentiles he is the anti of Christ
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Actually it was the ancestors of the Christians that killed the Messiah not the jews.

The ancestors of the christians were jews.

Matthew 20:19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to mock, to scourge, and to crucify

Mark 10:33 “...They will condemn him to death, and will deliver him to the Gentiles. 10:34 They will mock him, spit on him, scourge him, and kill him.

These really don't support your theory. The "chief priests" and "scribes" were the jews who "condemnd[ed] him to death."
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
So? God does not need to send a messenger, yet you apparently believe God did anyway.
In some terms, you could say that in Christianity, God sent the CEO to visit, whereas in Islam, God sent a lowly supervisor. The difference is that one can make policy; whereas the other can only impart policy.
 
The ancestors of the christians were jews.

So your saying it was the ancestors of the Christians that killed the Messiah?

These really don't support your theory. The "chief priests" and "scribes" were the Jews who "condemnd[ed] him to death."

Again your saying the ancestors of the Christians killed the Messiah?

The scriptures actually say the chief priests and the elders persuaded the people to ask for Barabbas and when Pilate asked what should be done to the Messiah they all said "let him be crucified".

Pilate himself said he had the power to release him or crucify him but Pilate wishing to satisfy the crowd released Barabbas and then he had the Messiah flogged and then he handed him over to be crucified.

All the people said to let his blood be on us and all our children.

Peter when speaking to the people said to let the entire house of Israel understand beyond a doubt that God made the Messiah, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ! and when they heard this, "they were pierced to the heart"​

Paul as you may know went out to the Gentiles. Would you find many Jews, if even a few, who claim Christians let alone Gentiles are descendants of theirs?

Why do many Christians persecute the Jews for crucifying him; Especially since, as you say, Christians are the descendants of those Jews too.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
So your saying it was the ancestors of the Christians that killed the Messiah?



Again your saying the ancestors of the Christians killed the Messiah?

The scriptures actually say the chief priests and the elders persuaded the people to ask for Barabbas and when Pilate asked what should be done to the Messiah they all said "let him be crucified".

Pilate himself said he had the power to release him or crucify him but Pilate wishing to satisfy the crowd released Barabbas and then he had the Messiah flogged and then he handed him over to be crucified.

All the people said to let his blood be on us and all our children.

Peter when speaking to the people said to let the entire house of Israel understand beyond a doubt that God made the Messiah, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ! and when they heard this, "they were pierced to the heart"​

Paul as you may know went out to the Gentiles. Would you find many Jews, if even a few, who claim Christians let alone Gentiles are descendants of theirs?

Why do many Christians persecute the Jews for crucifying him; Especially since, as you say, Christians are the descendants of those Jews too.
The first christians were Jews. Jesus was a jew as were his followers. So Jews would have no problem understanding that some Christians were Jews. Paul was a Jew and while he went in and amongst the "Gentiles" he did so AFTER the death of Jesus, not before.
 
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