The Islamic State has infiltrated airports, metro stations, etc.

[Kirran]

This is what we do:

I quote a verse from the Qur'an that mandates war against the non-Muslims. Then you come up with an alleged context for that verse that seems to render the verse harmless. You also give a personal interpretation that differs from the most straightforward interpretation of the text. Then I read commentaries on the verse written by the most renowned Islamic scholars of all time to see if the context and interpretation that you provided match the mainstream interpretation of that verse. Time and time again, the most renowned scholars of Islam do NOT agree with you. If it weren't for your objections, I would just quote the Qur'an without resorting to the writings of those scholars.

Nevertheless, Smart_Guy is a committed Muslim who believes in his peaceful interpretation of Islam. Therefore, to be a devout Muslim does not require blowing up innocent people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is what we do:

I quote a verse from the Qur'an that mandates war against the non-Muslims. Then you come up with an alleged context for that verse that seems to render the verse harmless. You also give a personal interpretation that differs from the most straightforward interpretation of the text. Then I read commentaries on the verse written by the most renowned Islamic scholars of all time to see if the context and interpretation that you provided match the mainstream interpretation of that verse. Time and time again, the most renowned scholars of Islam do NOT agree with you. If it weren't for your objections, I would just quote the Qur'an without resorting to the writings of those scholars.

We can play the same games with Christianity, because many top theologians have interpretated things to give themselves divine authorization for war, slaughter, and slavery, as well as converting non-Christians and killing those who wouldn't convert. The Church also put in a tragic efforct to erase history and records from pre-Christian Europe, as well as defacing and destroying artifacts, temples, texts, and anything else they could because they belonged to "Satanic, devil-worshiping cults."

 

[Crypto2015]

Nevertheless, Smart_Guy is a committed Muslim who believes in his peaceful interpretation of Islam. Therefore, to be a devout Muslim does not require blowing up innocent people.

Smart Guy has shown several times that he doesn't know much about Islam. So, you can hardly attribute his peacefulness to Islam.

 

[Crypto2015]

We can play the same games with Christianity, because many top theologians have interpretated things to give themselves divine authorization for war, slaughter, and slavery, as well as converting non-Christians and killing those who wouldn't convert. The Church also put in a tragic efforct to erase history and records from pre-Christian Europe, as well as defacing and destroying artifacts, temples, texts, and anything else they could because they belonged to "Satanic, devil-worshiping cults."

Oh I see, this is the old "whatabout fallacy". You are wrong about Christianity, but even if you were right, would that make Islam any harmless?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Smart Guy has shown several times that he doesn't know much about Islam. So, you can hardly attribute his peacefulness to Islam.

Even still, he's hardly been the only peaceful Muslim on RF.

 

[Kirran]

Smart Guy has shown several times that he doesn't know much about Islam. So, you can hardly attribute his peacefulness to Islam.

So you have certain preconceptions about Islam. He doesn't fit them. Therefore, he doesn't know much about Islam?

He is a lifelong Muslim living in a country which is over 90% Muslim, and is a native Arabic speaker...

 

[Crypto2015]

Even still, he's hardly been the only peaceful Muslim on RF.

Of course that there are a lot of peaceful Muslims. The question is: are they peaceful because or in spite of Islam?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh I see, this is the old "whatabout fallacy". You are wrong about Christianity, but even if you were right, would that make Islam any more harmless?

Historical facts are not wrong. Christianity has been responsible for great wars, massacres, and overall, ruled Europe in much a way that ISIS wants to rule. ISIS has burned people alive, so did the Church. ISIS wants a war with infidels, so did the Church. ISIS kills people not being Muslim, the Church killed over birthmarks.

 

[Kirran]

Of course that there are a lot of peaceful Muslims. The question is: are they peaceful because or in spite of Islam?

Depends on interpretation. Religions aren't monolithic.

 

[Crypto2015]

So you have certain preconceptions about Islam. He doesn't fit them. Therefore, he doesn't know much about Islam?

He is a lifelong Muslim living in a country which is over 90% Muslim, and is a native Arabic speaker...

I don't have any preconceptions about Islam. I simply read the Islamic sacred texts and I take them at face value. I have a better understanding of Islam than Smart Guy, since all of the most renowned Islamic scholars agree with me and disagree with Smart Guy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Of course that there are a lot of peaceful Muslims. The question is: are they peaceful because or in spite of Islam?

Peaceful people are peaceful, violent people are violent. It's really not much different than the violent video games debate, which still has many people insisting violent video games make people violent, even though just a look at the world shows that is not an accurate statement. Heavy metal has also been targeted, and it often does have lyrics that contain themes of violence. But in spite of this, metalheads, as a group, are not known for being violent.

 

[Crypto2015]

Historical facts are not wrong. Christianity has been responsible for great wars, massacres, and overall, ruled Europe in much a way that ISIS wants to rule. ISIS has burned people alive, so did the Church. ISIS wants a war with infidels, so did the Church. ISIS kills people not being Muslim, the Church killed over birthmarks.

Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.

So can you face these historical facts with maturity, or are you just going to blabber on?

 

[Kirran]

I don't have any preconceptions about Islam. I simply read the Islamic sacred texts and I take them at face value. I have a better understanding of Islam than Smart Guy, since all of the most renowned Islamic scholars agree with me and disagree with Smart Guy.

So having a minority understanding means you don't understand the religion?

In other words, those pioneering Christians speaking out against slavery 300 years ago were wrong by dint of the fact most Christians thought their faith justified it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Daesh's theology is really that of an apocalyptic death cult. They're actually trying to bring on the end of the world. Christian Zionist pre-tribulation lunatics have much the same ideas and they were a big influence over the foreign policy of the Bush administration. So you have that and the complicated socio-political situation in that area (poverty, social collapse, war along with Western meddling and material support of jihadi extremists, etc.) and so the rise of movements like Daesh become much easier to understand. So to blame it just on Islam is pretty stupid.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Don't forget, the church's violent history is recent enough that one of the last "witch hunts" and paranoia occurred on American soil.

 

[Akivah]

Ansari stated:

The Islamic State is a state. The Islamic State has agents all around the very sensitive facilities in the world, like metro stations, like airports and other places whether in the West or in the Arab world. We have our mujahedeen implanted in those facilities as workers, as employees, even in the security field in the airports.

And they were recruited to work with the Islamic State and we proved that we succeeded to reach a very deep infiltration in these facilities. We showed it in Sinai with the Russian jet. We show it now. And everybody should understand. This is a state. This state will not disappear. It will only become bigger because this is the message. This is the prophecy of Muhammad and this is the promise of Allah…."

Since Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, we shouldn't be worried if our police officers, secret service operatives, medics, airport security guards, etc. are Muslim, right?

Terrorist Muslims regularly call on Muslims to arms. As on this link, in which ISIS supporters call on fellow Muslims to commit more terrorism in France. http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8347.htm

Abu Salman, a fighter for the IS, calls his Facebook followers: "So you have received the order to hit France now go for it" To this statement, Amine Meslem, a French IS supporter in France comments: "If you refuse to do it [attack], when your brothers are bombed and killed and that their blood and their riches all over [the world] has been made lawful by their enemies, then revise your religion. You are in a dangerous situation because religion cannot be established without Al Wala wal bara [doctrine of loyalty to Muslims and renouncement of non-Muslims].”

"Zeitoun Portugal" is a French IS supporter from the Paris area. He posted this status on Facebook on August 10, 2014: "So Brothers what are we waiting for to besiege the Elysee [Palace]!? .... Let's stop being weak! We are so numerous that we can make Europe an Islamic State and we avert our eyes downwards before the infidels? When will this stop?"

 

[FearGod]

Perhaps you are a better Islamic scholar than Ibn Kathir, because he certainly believes that Az-Zalimun means "polytheists". Check my previous post.

Who's Ibn Kathir?

 

[Shad]

Smart Guy has shown several times that he doesn't know much about Islam. So, you can hardly attribute his peacefulness to Islam.

From my experience he speaks very little about Islam since he is KSA. Enough said.

 

[Shad]

Who's Ibn Kathir?

ابن كثير