The irony in the Baha'i faith

[Jim]

Are you able to clarify these repeated questions to the point. I'm sure once there are clear, couple sentence bold answers the debate wouldn't be asking for clarification repeatedly

1. Does Baha'i religion replace older religions?

i.e. every manifestation is (lbw) upgrading past religions that are were only appropriate for that time period.

I.e. from Investigator:

"Thus Bahai Faith is the renewed Christ Faith. It is the renewed Hinduism. It is the renewed Islam."

Can this be clarified?

Replacement doesn't need to be a bad word. It's being direct though.

2. Does Baha'i believe that Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, believe in the same abrahamic god?

i.e. Baha'i have many people from other religions consider themselves Baha'i (right?) So they must have some understanding of god in relation to other Faith's.

4.
Are Christians wrong that their god literally Rose from the dead?

(Same line of questioning) Are Hindus wrong? Are Buddhist?

Wrong/incorrect, etc aren't negative words. (You can use a synomnym if comfortable but long as it's to the point though)


5. Are the scriptures of other Faith's wrong?
And. Does Baha'i have the correct interpretation of them?

Not negative just not going around the bush over of

It kinda gets unnerving to read all of this when straight answers can cure all evils

Views on all of those questions might diverge as widely among Baha’is as they do in all of the rest of society. See Diversity of Bahá’í views about gays, homosexuality, theocracy, God and other topics and Diverging views of Baha’is about their religion. Are you looking for some official statement of Baha’i beliefs? If so, what would you consider official? Statements on the international website? Messages from the international council? Authenticated writings and talks of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi? I can try to find statements in one or more of those sources that might answer your questions, if you’d like.

 

[Jim]

What this all looks like to me is people calling the beliefs and practices of some members of the Baha’i community “The Baha’i Faith,” and debating about that. That might create some confusion and misunderstandings about that community.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Baha’i Writings are true for me and I accept they are not true for you. You are content with what you believe as I am with being a Baha’i. I don’t think I’ve ever tried to convince you and have no wish to.

Yeah, you have no chance of convincing me, but perhaps I have a chance to save someone from untruth.

 

[Jim]

Are you able to clarify these repeated questions to the point. I'm sure once there are clear, couple sentence bold answers the debate wouldn't be asking for clarification repeatedly

1. Does Baha'i religion replace older religions?

i.e. every manifestation is (lbw) upgrading past religions that are were only appropriate for that time period.

I.e. from Investigator:

"Thus Bahai Faith is the renewed Christ Faith. It is the renewed Hinduism. It is the renewed Islam."

Can this be clarified?

Replacement doesn't need to be a bad word. It's being direct though.

2. Does Baha'i believe that Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, believe in the same abrahamic god?

i.e. Baha'i have many people from other religions consider themselves Baha'i (right?) So they must have some understanding of god in relation to other Faith's.

4.
Are Christians wrong that their god literally Rose from the dead?

(Same line of questioning) Are Hindus wrong? Are Buddhist?

Wrong/incorrect, etc aren't negative words. (You can use a synomnym if comfortable but long as it's to the point though)


5. Are the scriptures of other Faith's wrong?
And. Does Baha'i have the correct interpretation of them?

Not negative just not going around the bush over of

It kinda gets unnerving to read all of this when straight answers can cure all evils

If you’re curious or concerned about what Baha’is might do in the future, maybe you’d like to know what their international council has been calling for them to do. There might be some agreement about that between Baha’is in these forums, but the best way to find out might be to read some of its messages to the community and to the national councils and see for yourself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know you want a clear cut answer but the very best and most accurate answer to each and every one of your questions is what Baha’u’llah has stated. If not Him then Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the Universal House of Justice simply because they are all we believe, Divinely Guided and Infallible and convey the true Baha’i spirit better than any Baha’i can convey.


Also it would likely require quoting pages and pages to explain the Baha’i view as it is complex not just a simple answer always. That’s where independent investigation of truth is what I recommend to you. Reading what Baha’u’llah says directly on these topics will convey not only the answer but the spirit of the answer. It is the spirit in which these questions are answered that impart the beautiful joy in our beliefs in all religions. If we make it too technical we lose sight of the spiritual nature of the Baha’i Faith.

People who know the spirit of the Baha’i Faith love us and do not fear us. It’s those who don’t know us in spirit who instead of looking for themselves listen to hearsay that creates confusion and misunderstanding which those who are against the Faith seek to achieve.

Thank you

If someone where to ask you a few of things in a coffee shop, could you give an elevator speech in answer?

I know you're passionate about your faith and on the other hand sometimes the basics helps before you get to the big stuff.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I’m going to provide you with my personal perspective of the Baha’i Faith that I hope and pray is based on the Baha’i writings. There are others here who can correct me if I err.



Before answering the questions if we’re going to be frank I don’t believe any answer from any Baha’i will satisfy some of the participants on this thread. There are at least four critics of the Baha’i Faith on this thread who have been talking to the Baha’is for nearly three years on this forum, in two instances longer. I can’t imagine that anything that’s said by the Baha’is will make too much difference for these individuals to be completely frank. I’m always open to discussion and really like each one a great deal but OTOH but I have little interest when we seem to talk past each other, go round in circles or keep rehashing the same stuff ad nauseam.

Ok here goes....



The Baha’i Faith will not replace any religion. How could we? However the Baha’i Faith does present a renewed version of both Christianity and Islam. It does to a lesser extent do the same with both Buddhism and Hinduism.



Christians and Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. Most Buddhists and Hindus simply don’t think in terms of the God of Abraham. They may share many of the values and morals as their Abrahamic cousins but the whole narrative is quite different.



Baha’is don’t believe Jesus literally rose from the dead. How Christians see Jesus is their business but clearly we disagree He rose from the dead. You’ll find similar examples in other religions. Reincarnation in Hinduism is a example of a core difference with the Baha’i Faith.



The Quran is seen as the authenticated repository of the Word of God. The New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are seen as more or less authentic. We can not say for certain to what extent the Buddhist and Hindu scriptures are authentic and that will be a matter for scholars to unravel.

The Baha’i Faith has a great deal to say about both Christian and Islamic Scriptures that we would see as being based on God’s Revelation through Bahá’u’lláh. Some of that will contradict what Muslims and Christians believe about their scriptures. Obviously the Baha’i Writings takes precedence for Baha’is.

The Baha’i Writings have little to say in regards Buddhism and Hinduism but we acknowledge there are nonetheless Baha’i beliefs that contradict some views that are cherished by many Hindus and Buddhists.



That is my take on the Baha’i Faith based on my understanding of the Baha’i writings accumulated over 30 years.

I hope I’ve answered your questions clearly, succinctly and honestly.

Thank you!

I'll have to read it a bit later.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Views on all of those questions might diverge as widely among Baha’is as they do in all of the rest of society. See Diversity of Bahá’í views about gays, homosexuality, theocracy, God and other topics and Diverging views of Baha’is about their religion. Are you looking for some official statement of Baha’i beliefs? If so, what would you consider official? Statements on the international website? Messages from the international council? Authenticated writings and talks of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi? I can try to find statements in one or more of those sources that might answer your questions, if you’d like.

No. I'm just looking for straightforward answers. We have so many threads against bahai beliefs and one side is talking about irony and dependencies in the faith and the other side is quoting history and scripture of bahai but not getting to the point in what they are saying; circle.

I'm sure there are simple answers without referring people to scriptures and history? Some people love to read multiple sources and others just like you to be blunt.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you’re curious or concerned about what Baha’is might do in the future, maybe you’d like to know what their international council has been calling for them to do. There might be some agreement about that between Baha’is in these forums, but the best way to find out might be to read some of its messages to the community and to the national councils and see for yourself.

Actually, I just wanted elevator speech answers.

 

[oldbadger]

The world decides for itself who it wants to govern it. We have no involvement in politics whatsoever.

Baha'i clearly seeks to be a Baha'i World Government. It's all there, written down as clear as day.

Have you read the criminal and civil laws, judgements, court systems, voting systems, etc?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you

If someone where to ask you a few of things in a coffee shop, could you give an elevator speech in answer?

I know you're passionate about your faith and on the other hand sometimes the basics helps before you get to the big stuff.

Thank you. Ok here goes then. The main purpose and principle around which all the teachings of Baha’u’llah revolve is the oneness of humanity. That all races, nationalities and religions and peoples are equal and none is superior to the other. That includes both believers and non believers. That all prejudices need to be eliminated.

The concept of the oneness of mankind has far reaching implications legally, politically, socially and spiritually for when humanity’s interests are put above vested and national interests a lot of problems can be solved together as one family. It also implies a world commonwealth giving birth to a world civilisation with a world metropolis and world language while at the same time the diversity of the human race being preserved.

Humanity has evolved from the family, tribe, city state to nation and nation building has come to an end. The next stage Baha’is believe is the unity of humankind. Technology and wars causing refugees has shrunk the world into a global neighbourhood where the different races, religions and nationalities have been thrown together in a kind of melting pot but without the necessary tools to deal with the situation.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was sent by God to guide us into the next stage of our evolution which is the eventual establishment of a flourishing world civilisation living in peace, prosperity and happiness and so He taught things like ‘the earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ because the us and them paradigm has only led to endless wars for thousands of years.


Baha’is believe that the establishment of the oneness of mankind is the urgent need of our age because it rejects, by its very nature for any one race, nation or religion to dominate the world which would be catastrophic and throw us into unimaginable horrors.

For instance racism has the power to destroy America internally without it ever having to go to war, terrorism can turn the east and west against each other and cause grave consequences. Only viewing all humanity as equal fellow human beings do we stand any chance of living in peace.

So Baha’u’llah’s teaching of the oneness of humanity is what Baha’is believe is needed for our time. But we don’t worship Baha’u’llah or our religion.we worship only God. And we are exhorted to consort with the followers of all religions in friendship and fellowship so we visit and pray and meditate at other religions temples, mosques, synagogues and churches as we believe all religions teach truths such has love, virtues and good character.

So the oneness of humanity is the major teaching round which the Baha’i Faith revolves.

 

[Windwalker]

"It is neither eclectic in the presentation of its truths, nor arrogant in the affirmation of its claims. Its teachings revolve around the fundamental principle that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is progressive, not final."

Here's the problem I see. While I agree all religious truth is relative, how is it he can then say it is progressive in the next breath? By saying it is progressive, that is to say that this new truth supersedes previous truths, that it summarizes and bypasses what the earlier truths said. This is not a recognition of the nature of relativism, but rather that there is only one truth that follows a straight linear line. And that the most recent "revelation" is better than, higher than, truer than previous revelations.

It is also in fact eclectic, in that it cherry picks what it likes from other traditions, and then crafts and molds those into its own ideas of what that truth is, then claiming it has the newest, latest, and best revised edition of divine truth. All of exposes that it does not in fact recognize the relative nature of religious truth. It claims it has a "better" truth because it is newer and corrects the errors of the previous traditions.

"Unequivocally and without the least reservation it proclaims all established religions to be divine in origin, identical in their aims, complementary in their functions, continuous in their purpose, indispensable in their value to mankind."

These words sound good, however when you then next say that you have the latest update, you have placed these other religions as inferior. This is not an understanding of the relative nature of truth. "Progressive revelation" in the sense that the Baha'i take it, is a replacement religion for these old horse-and-buggy religions with their new 19th Century sports car edition.

Essentially, Baha'I Faith claims, Religion of God needs to be renewed in every Age.

You mean replaced? How is the Baha'i faith "renewing" Christianity for Christians, for example? How does it "renew" the Islamic faith for Muslims? How does it renew Hinduism? Is anyone outside the Bahai religion itself benefitting from this latest revelation?

Proselytizing those in other religions, is not an effort to renew their faith for them. It's an effort to convert them to a different religion, which merely pays lip service to those other religions to soften the sell that they need to "update" their religion with the Baha'i faith.

Thus Bahai Faith is the renewed Christ Faith.

No it is not. It's a different religion that Christians convert to, out of Christianity. How many former Christians are Baha'i on this site alone? Quite a few from what I've seen. It is not a renewed Christian faith, it's a replacement for it. Why would someone not remain a Christian if it were merely a renewal of that faith? Why would they leave the religion for the Baha'i then?

It is the renewed Hinduism.

No it is not. It does not even begin to speak to Hindu beliefs and practices, let alone begin to rival its incredible depths and insights. It has next to no relationship at all with it, even though it claims it "renews" it, somehow. I can't imagine in what ways it does? Can you, or anyone else explain that reasonably?

It is the renewed Islam.

While it has more in common with Islam than any of the other world religions, it appears it's not doing that well in "renewing" it. How many Muslims take anything at all from the Baha'i faith into their own, aside from those who convert to the Baha'i religion from Islam?

As much as even as Christ and other Messengers have said, the Religion would get distorted by false teachers, thus all Religions promised a Person to appear at the end, to renewe Religion and teach the original Faith.

This is the claim of every cult who sees themselves as the latest and greatest religion from God. "We've got the latest truth", banners flying from their roofs, proclaims not a renewal, but a revision, correction, and replacement for them, in their minds.

They all do this. Baha'i faith is just another one of those making that same claim, in the same way, saying the same thing, as every "latest" prophet from God to come along. It's nothing new at all.

Bahais believe, this promise is fulfilled by the person of Bahaullah, and He is the One all previous Foumders of Religions had promised to come.

Yes, all these other "latest revelation" cults claim the same things. It's a recognizable pattern, not a new truth.

 

[Windwalker]

Thank you. Ok here goes then. The main purpose and principle around which all the teachings of Baha’u’llah revolve is the oneness of humanity. That all races, nationalities and religions and peoples are equal and none is superior to the other. That includes both believers and non believers. That all prejudices need to be eliminated.

The concept of the oneness of mankind has far reaching implications legally, politically, socially and spiritually for when humanity’s interests are put above vested and national interests a lot of problems can be solved together as one family. It also implies a world commonwealth giving birth to a world civilisation with a world metropolis and world language while at the same time the diversity of the human race being preserved.

Humanity has evolved from the family, tribe, city state to nation and nation building has come to an end. The next stage Baha’is believe is the unity of humankind. Technology and wars causing refugees has shrunk the world into a global neighbourhood where the different races, religions and nationalities have been thrown together in a kind of melting pot but without the necessary tools to deal with the situation.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was sent by God to guide us into the next stage of our evolution which is the eventual establishment of a flourishing world civilisation living in peace, prosperity and happiness and so He taught things like ‘the earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ because the us and them paradigm has only led to endless wars for thousands of years.


Baha’is believe that the establishment of the oneness of mankind is the urgent need of our age because it rejects, by its very nature for any one race, nation or religion to dominate the world which would be catastrophic and throw us into unimaginable horrors.

For instance racism has the power to destroy America internally without it ever having to go to war, terrorism can turn the east and west against each other and cause grave consequences. Only viewing all humanity as equal fellow human beings do we stand any chance of living in peace.

So Baha’u’llah’s teaching of the oneness of humanity is what Baha’is believe is needed for our time. But we don’t worship Baha’u’llah or our religion.we worship only God. And we are exhorted to consort with the followers of all religions in friendship and fellowship so we visit and pray and meditate at other religions temples, mosques, synagogues and churches as we believe all religions teach truths such has love, virtues and good character.

So the oneness of humanity is the major teaching round which the Baha’i Faith revolves.

This expresses an ideal vision that within both the Jewish and Christian religions, you have these hoped for "kingdom of God" utopias, where there is sufficient for all, and justice in the equality of man, living to its highest standards of love and compassion towards all, human, animal, plant, and planet all.

However, to imagine that some religious structure or institution can accomplish this is a misguided faith. Anywhere there is power, there is corruption. Typically, the administrators are not the enlightened ones. And being as such, in a position of power, their egos are going to get the better of them, which they then justify with scriptures, and soon you have dissent and division, and the rushing in of other power seekers to draw away others to themselves and their leadership as the "true church".

It's an age old story that cycles through again and again. Then along comes then next prophet, and the next, and the next, until people finally get it it that it's up to them, and has been the whole time. We don't need another religion. We need an Awakening.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Say it clearly, Windwalker, then you have more manifestations \ prophets \ sons \ messengers \ mahdis, each looking to satisfy his ego and desires, each saying that his message is final or the latest.

 

[George-ananda]

Thanks for your post @George-ananda . You raise some interesting points and you having been a Baha’i adds an element of intrigue.

1/ Some Baha’is undoubtedly do have an overly simplistic view of religion. But I had understood we were encouraged to learn about other faiths and acquire a more profound understanding of religion and how it has shaped the course of civilisation.

2/ The Baha’i Faith as you know emerged from the Islamic world and then spread to the Christian West. While it has spread world wide throughout the middle of the twentieth century into Asia and the Indian subcontinent many Western Baha’is have a limited knowledge of religions in this part of the world. For me personally, joining RF presents a valuable opportunity to learn about faiths such as Hinduism. So while Christianity, atheism and Islam are often an relatively easy space for Western Baha’is the move into Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism is more challenging.

3/ I agree the focus of the Baha’i Faith is on unity and there’s no animosity. However it is your fourth point that arguably results in the most misunderstandings.

First, thanks for being a classy poster. What is religion when it reduces people to animosity? My sentiments are still pro-Baha'i and I primarily agree with your three points above.

4/ You say the Baha’i Faith is intended to replace other religions. I don’t believe it is but understand why you might feel it is. The Baha’i Faith like Christianity, Islam and to a lesser extent Buddhism too have all sought to be global Faiths. However they were never intended to replace all other faiths and of course haven’t. They have however acquired significant followings thus changing the religious landscape of the planet and in the process profoundly influencing the course of history. That shift has resulted in a large movement away from other faiths and philosophies but they haven’t been replaced. Unlike Christianity and Islam any shift towards the Baha’i Faith will be through peaceful means and not through force and coercion. If the Baha’i Faith is what it claims to be this will inevitably come about and nothing anyone says here will stop it. If not we will eventually fade into obscurity. Time will tell.

This is the point in which I feel many modern western Baha'i converts are not in full understanding as a few things about the Baha'i Faith have been de-emphasized to make the Baha'i Faith more smoothly palatable to good quality liberal-minded westerners.

Here is the point de-emphasized and in many cases completely missed by well-meaning western Baha'is: The Bahai Faith is to be the One predominant Faith of the New World Order. There will never be forced conversion but such overwhelming world-wide conversion that Baha'i administrative institutions will even replace the governments of the world's countries. We will have a Baha'i Commonwealth ushering in the Golden Age of mankind. Major religions of the past will be fulfilled and advanced through acceptance of the Baha'i covenant and people will be all united under the one independent world religion, the Baha'i Faith.

By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation.

All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race and become a single people.

Shoghi Effendi (Source Document from which quotes are taken)

 

[George-ananda]

Hello again.......
Bahai is also intended to be a World government. This can be seen in the criminal and civil laws, court systems, voting system, police force, etc...... more than just a religion, I think.

Yes, the Baha'i Faith teaches that the Baha'i Administrative Order is to grow into world governance replacing in authority the crumbling institutions and governments of the old world order.

This is what has been de-emphasized in the 21st century presentation of the Baha'i Faith and I believe not grasped by many actual Baha'is.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, the Baha'i Faith teaches that the Baha'i Administrative Order is to grow into world governance replacing in authority the crumbling institutions and governments of the old world order.

This is what has been de-emphasized in the 21st century presentation of the Baha'i Faith and I believe not grasped by many actual Baha'is.

Hi George.
Yep.
If Baha'i would just bite the bullet and tell it as it is, then at least it would gain respect for being candid. But this ducking and diving of facts just looks like deception.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, you have no chance of convincing me, but perhaps I have a chance to save someone from untruth.

Then according to the rules of this forum you’re proselytising.

Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

RF Rules

But don’t worry, you’re not the only Hindu here proselytising.

 

[George-ananda]

Hi George.
Yep.
If Baha'i would just bite the bullet and tell it as it is, then at least it would gain respect for being candid. But this ducking and diving of facts just looks like deception.

And then I see a classy guy like @adrian009 and feel a little bad about anything that might be a discouraging word.

 

[Earthtank]

Hi folks,

The irony in the Baha'i faith is that they, despite their claim to do otherwise, facilitate religious animosities or at least irritation between religious groups (at least against themselves) by devaluing other people‘s religious backgrounds, which by nature is a very personal thing and might easily lead to feelings of being offended.

Of course, in the first place, like any other people, Baha'is are individuals, but my intent is to describe what I see as an overall characteristic in that faith, regardless of any anecdotal evidence.

Please discuss.

Let's not forget how women are not truly equal to men which makes it contradict today's day and age. Look up Bahai faith and feminism and you will see what i am talking about

 

[Riders]

Hi folks,

The irony in the Baha'i faith is that they, despite their claim to do otherwise, facilitate religious animosities or at least irritation between religious groups (at least against themselves) by devaluing other people‘s religious backgrounds, which by nature is a very personal thing and might easily lead to feelings of being offended.

Of course, in the first place, like any other people, Baha'is are individuals, but my intent is to describe what I see as an overall characteristic in that faith, regardless of any anecdotal evidence.

Please discuss.

How do they do that?