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Featured The irony in the Baha'i faith

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sirona, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    The Bible was Inclusive of Muhammad, the Prophecies do not work out, unless Muhammad is included, after all, it was the Faith of Islam that was abrogated in AH1260, as per the Biblical Prophecy.

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    The question is... Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah were all "The return of Christ". The 1844 prophecy doesn't go to Baha'u'llah, it goes to the one who was his forerunner. And, it bypassed Muhammad. Sure, all the "prophecies" make sense to Baha'is, but, for me, they are too convoluted.
     
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  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    Christ came before Christ as well. Matthew 17 gives a lot of great insight into Spiritual Bodies and the Resurection.

    Remember Jesus says it all in Revelation 22: 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates.…"

    That passage says we also enter that recognition of Christ through the 'Gates'. Just as the Bab was.

    Matthew 7 gives us a good picture what is the true resurrection, that it was going to be in the last days. It also shows that the prophecy is timeless, as this passage is talking in the presence of a distant future. Matthew 7: 9 "As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.” 10 The disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11Jesus replied, “Elijah does indeed come, and he will restore all things.…"

    The raised from the dead here, to me is saying that no one is to be told until Elijah comes to restore all things.

    Christ means "The Anointed One". That is the key, Christ is who God chooses to Anoint and they are all Christ, the first and the last. You can see that Jesus was talking the same Truths as Baha'ullah in a language yet to be understood.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. WonderingWorrier

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    Ok. I'm trying to understand Bahai's belief in multiple religions. What is the Bahai method of identifying truth in different religions. Do Bahai's believe in Baha'u'llah and unity of religions through reason or faith. I'm now starting to read some Bahai texts to try to learn more.

    You are saying the method of sorting all religions texts into what is really from God is that the texts which are good is from God and all the rest is from man. So who decides what religions texts are good and therefore the truth?

    Some might think the glass that is half full of water is the truth.
    While some might think the glass that is half empty of water is the truth.

    Now you are saying Baha'u'llah spoke the same truth as Jesus. But in a language that is not understood yet.

    If you don't understand the language then how can you say that they both speak the same truth?

    Some might think the glass that is half full of air is the truth.
    While some might think the glass that is half empty of air is the truth.
     
  5. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    I’ll ask for clarity now.
    - Do you think that all the followers of all the religions except yours can be wrong in some of their most fundamental beliefs, but you can not be wrong in any of your most fundamental beliefs?
    - Do you think that all the followers of all the religions except yours can be wrong in what they see as the most clear and obvious meanings in their scriptures, but you can not be wrong in what you see as the most clear and obvious meanings in yours?
    - Do you think that all the followers of all the religions except yours need to be willing to question some of their most cherished and fundamental beliefs, but you don’t need to be willing to question any of yours?
    - Would you deny that you are exalting your beliefs, and your understanding of all the world’s scriptures, above the beliefs and understanding of all the followers of all other religions, that you do not see the followers of other religions as equals?
     
    #605 Jim, Jan 10, 2020
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  6. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Sometimes when people see Baha’is saying that all religions are one, they might think that you mean that all religions are equal, including the Baha’i Faith. They might think you mean that you see them as equals, on an equal footing with them, in your knowledge and understanding of scriptures, and of God’s will and purposes. That is not true if you think that your beliefs and your understanding of all the world’s scriptures can not be wrong, and everyone else’s can.
     
  7. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    The definition of proselytizing for Baha'i is placing undue influence on a person to convert them. In other words using say some influence such as coercion or force.

    Here is a dictionary definition:

    "...to induce someone to convert to one's faith..."

    Definition of PROSELYTIZE

    Read the following from Universal House of Justice:

    "Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization."

    Proselytizing, Development, and the Covenant

    Baha'is are forbidden to proselytize. Read the article from which the above quote is taken.
    Baha'u'llah has further revealed the ground for teaching the Cause in the following Hidden Word:

    "O Son of Dust! The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved .... "

    The Hidden Words

    Inviting someone to a Fireside is not proselytizing. Answering a question is not proselytizing. Observing a Baha'i Holy Day is not proselytizing. Having a Baha'i wedding or having a Baha'i burial is not proselytizing. In some places Baha'is are denied even these basic rights.
     
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    1-3 The answer to your all's is a simple no.

    4 - My understanding of the world scriptures are what Baha'u'llah has written about those scriptures and I see Baha'u'llah was not wrong. I see all humanity as One and it is Baha'u'llahs Message in this age, that is the judge of us all. That Message has judged all people of All Faiths in All of Gods other Names, since time began and will do until time ends. Yet there is no beginning and no end.

    Regards Tony
     
    #608 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Jan 10, 2020
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  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    It would be great if RF would adopt this! :) Maybe a truckload of warnings could be avoided?

    Regards Tony
     
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  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    If any explanations of the Holy books have been given by a Messenger of God, or by one that is under a covenant given by God, they are the explanations to offer.

    In that way and only that way, they are not my explanations.

    On the other hand in the following way I can offer what has been given as In this day this prophecy has been fulfilled and as each day goes by knowledge increases; John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.."

    I can only offer what was spoken.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Do you think that most people, including some Baha’is, are misunderstanding some parts of their scriptures? Do you think that can’t happen to you?
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So all Baha'is believe in the most fundamental beliefs of all religions?
     
  13. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Obviously not. I’m a Baha’i, and I don’t believe in all the fundamental beliefs of any religion, including mine. I’m seeing very clearly now what people have called “fundamentalism” in the Baha’i Faith, and that it’s the only part of the Baha’i Faith that many people are seeing in Internet discussions.
     
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  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    It happens to all of us.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    The answer was no, that means I can be wrong.

    On the other hand I stated that Baha'u'llah and the Messengers are not wrong and it is up to us if we except those explanations.

    Regards Tony
     
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  16. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    It looks to me like you and @adrian009 think of the Baha’i Faith as it is today as having more truth in its beliefs and being more faithful to its scriptures than all other religions as they are today. You do not think of all religions including the Baha’i Faith, as they are today, as being equal. Maybe you aren’t claiming to think of them as being equal. Are you? If not, then people might be misunderstanding you when you say that all religions are one. Abdu’l-Baha never said “All religions are one.” He said that the foundation of the religions is one.
     
    #616 Jim, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    There is a search function of RF Jim. Using it one can search the keyword of Foundation and then also search any RF Member across all posts.

    In that way it can be seen how many times an individual Member may have used that word in the context you asked and to how many times it has been used in that context.

    I make no distinction between God's Faiths, but embrace the explanations given by those that had authority to interpret.

    The 'Hidden Words', a gift to humanity by Baha'u'llah, is the Essence of all the Messages, of all the Holy Books of the Past. Meditating upon those passages will tell one's heart how the foundations of Faith is One and that we all face the same challenges.

    A lot of those meditations were specifically meant for the divines who teach God's Faiths.

    Regards Tony
     
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  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    We have all read the Baha'i quote that says the Bible is not totally authentic. And how could it? Various writers that nobody really knows who they are. Nobody knows if Moses really wrote the first five books. But we do know Jesus wrote nothing. And that every accepted and canonized gospel has variations in it. Then, like in Daniel, when was it really written and who wrote it? If it isn't perfectly accurate, then how can we trust those prophecies in it? But, then can we trust it when it says Daniel's friends were thrown into a furnace and didn't die or even get burned? That certainly isn't true is it?

    But, the intent of most religions is generally to give rules to live by. Those rules have changed, progressed, over time. So Baha'is are kind of right. All religions are similar and have progressed when it comes to social laws. But, they have also changed with how they see spiritual things too. And that don't fit with what Baha'is say. One God, no God, many Gods? Incarnations, reincarnations? Devils and demon gods? For me, religion seems like just reasonable guesses at what a spiritual world would be like. And, the laws fit really well into what each culture needed to keep order in their society. And, as society changed, those laws changed. But the easiest thing to do was to say those laws came from a God, so you better obey them. So I almost agree with the Baha'i Faith, just a few minor adjustments in interpretation.
     
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  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    The Bible contains and guides us to the end goal of accepting the promise.

    It was the Prophecy given in that book that confirmed what my heart has accepted.

    I gather you still have not chosen to read the Kitab-i-Iqan, the book of Certitude.

    How else can I start and OP about Absolute Certitude, without first embracing what the Book of Certitude has offered?

    With Logic, that book confirms the common Foundations of Faith, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of the Messengers. In a 'Twofold Station'.

    Regards Tony
     
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  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    All our divergent thoughts about God are because we see the light after it passes through a prisim.

    It is Pure white light that enters and then what is omitted is what we see in this world.

    White Light: Definition, Source & Spectrum - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com

    Each Messenger, all Names are the prisms, the light and colour that comes from them is only restricted to the capacity and knowledge of the day the Light is dispersed. It becomes relative to that capacity.

    It is up to us if we choose to see that same light in this day, with out current capacity in science, or to hold to seeing through relative capacities of hundreds and thousands of years ago.

    Regards Tony
     
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