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The irony in the Baha'i faith

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You haven't sounded (to me) like a Bahai for many months now.
Jim is only learning to be a Bahai, He is perhaps not yet a full Bahai. :D
Baha’i 2.0 is not going very far either but if either version helps its adherents to advance further spiritually then in that respect they are both positive versions.
Negative, if their respect to other religions stops with the advent of Bahaullah (and does not go over to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas). Then they are just one more predator looking for a prey.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
Update on what I’m saying about two different Baha’i Faiths. One is a worldwide community with a supreme council seated on Mount Carmel in Israel. For more than 20 years the messages of that council to the members has revolved life around learning to work with neighbors to build a healthier, happier and more loving community life. There are now thousands of communities all around the world where that is happening. That is currently the most widespread and best known common interest between the Baha’is of the world, no matter what they believe or don’t believe about any God or gods, Bahá’u’lláh and His successors, manifestations, science and religion, prophets, avatars, dharma, enlightenment, salvation, homosexuality or any other religious, social or political issues.

The Baha’i Faith that I see people discussing here is not that community, or any community that could ever possibly exist outside of some people’s imaginations. The Baha’i Faith that I see people discussing here is the personal beliefs, and the attitudes and behavior, of a statistically insignificant, self-selected sample of members who post about their beliefs day after day, year after year, without ever mentioning those common interests of that worldwide community.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, you want to interfere, infiltrate, dominate (the Bahai world, the Bahai Banner, the Bahai government), we have no such interest.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Yeah, you want to interfere, infiltrate, dominate (the Bahai world, the Bahai Banner, the Bahai government), we have no such interest.
:smiley: “All your base are belong to us!”

“Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.”

You might be underestimating our ambitions.
It is not Our wish to lay hands on your kingdoms. Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men. Upon them the eyes of Bahá are fastened.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 210-212
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, science says what science says. But Allah created Adam from glob of soil and Eve from his rib.

The story of Adam and Eve is mostly allegorical and not to be taken literally.

Human civilizations have always been the same. They were no better or worse anytime in history. What is the degeneration now which did not exist in the past? There is no damage to the soul of India. We are doing as well as at any other time in history, partition or no partition.

There are always cycles and change. Nothing remains the same.

By what standard do you define the success of your country.

Again, no. To say that Hinduism tolerates atheism is not correct. Atheism is actually a part of Hinduism and has been around in Hinduism since the time of Vedas. It is difficult for people from Abrahamics religions to visualize the breadth of Hinduism.

I have no illusions about the diversity within Hinduism. I have a sense that you are somewhat of an outlier in Hinduism, particularly from strong theists.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You might be underestimating our ambitions.
If wishes were horses ..
By what standard do you define the success of your country.
We have democracy, we have perhaps the fourth largest army in the world, we have the third largest economy in the world, we have the seventh largest reserve of foreign exchange, we have a respectable rate of growth and we have an excellent bank of more than half-a-billion young people. That is good for us at the moment.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Update on what I’m saying about two different Baha’i Faiths. One is a worldwide community with a supreme council seated on Mount Carmel in Israel. For more than 20 years the messages of that council to the members has revolved life around learning to work with neighbors to build a healthier, happier and more loving community life. There are now thousands of communities all around the world where that is happening. That is currently the most widespread and best known common interest between the Baha’is of the world, no matter what they believe or don’t believe about any God or gods, Bahá’u’lláh and His successors, manifestations, science and religion, prophets, avatars, dharma, enlightenment, salvation, homosexuality or any other religious, social or political issues.

The Baha’i Faith that I see people discussing here is not that community, or any community that could ever possibly exist outside of some people’s imaginations. The Baha’i Faith that I see people discussing here is the personal beliefs, and the attitudes and behavior, of a statistically insignificant, self-selected sample of members who post about their beliefs day after day, year after year, without ever mentioning those common interests of that worldwide community.

Oh no! No you don't! I tell you what, if you should ever decide to send your idea to the UHJ in writing, whilst you're free to do so it might be a good idea to use a pen-name and an address 100 miles away.

But the reason why I object is because that mindset that you posted (above) is exactly what some Bahai was 50 years ago. It didn't matter much what a person claimed to be or think back then because Bahai might answer 'That's us!!' in delighted happiness. I watched the results of that in later years when my wife's Bahai friends were being crushed by the discovery that they were NOT like Bahai.

Although I debate strongly with Bahai, I have to respect the stout heartedness of many Bahais here, but I would find trouble in respecting a chameleon type of Bahai who claims that Bahai fits all, if any are still out there.

Sorry...... :shrug:
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I don’t think that he’s exaggerating it. I think that he’s underestimating it. See this post.
Yeah but read the small print...

By the righteousness of God! It is not Our wish to lay hands on your kingdoms. Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men.

I don’t know how it looks to you but the kingdom of India won’t be invaded by the Baha’is anytime.

Since God wants to seize hearts how’s He going to do that if He doesn’t even exist?

If God really did exist and Bahá’u’lláh was truly His Manifestation for this day there is a risk that God could transform the heart of a hardened atheist into theist in the twinkling of an eye. Was that what you meant?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
We have democracy, we have perhaps the fourth largest army in the world, we have the third largest economy in the world, we have the seventh largest reserve of foreign exchange, we have a respectable rate of growth and we have an excellent bank of more than half-a-billion young people. That is good for us at the moment.

Prosperity along with increased life expectancy, technological advances, better education and health are improving worldwide. Its good to see India benefit from these changes, take her place in the world and attain her share of wealth and status.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Oh no! No you don't! I tell you what, if you should ever decide to send your idea to the UHJ in writing, whilst you're free to do so it might be a good idea to use a pen-name and an address 100 miles away.

But the reason why I object is because that mindset that you posted (above) is exactly what some Bahai was 50 years ago. It didn't matter much what a person claimed to be or think back then because Bahai might answer 'That's us!!' in delighted happiness. I watched the results of that in later years when my wife's Bahai friends were being crushed by the discovery that they were NOT like Bahai.

Although I debate strongly with Bahai, I have to respect the stout heartedness of many Bahais here, but I would find trouble in respecting a chameleon type of Bahai who claims that Bahai fits all, if any are still out there.

Sorry...... :shrug:
Yes, I see that what I’m saying could be easily misunderstood as saying that the Baha’i community provides a friendly social environment for all people. I don’t think that it does. The social environment can be hostile sometimes for most of us, sometimes very hostile. Also I’ve been alarmed by a lack of social justice in the community, and a lack of interest in doing anything about it.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Yeah but read the small print...

By the righteousness of God! It is not Our wish to lay hands on your kingdoms. Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men.

I don’t know how it looks to you but the kingdom of India won’t be invaded by the Baha’is anytime.

Since God wants to seize hearts how’s He going to do that if He doesn’t even exist?

If God really did exist and Bahá’u’lláh was truly His Manifestation for this day there is a risk that God could transform the heart of a hardened atheist into theist in the twinkling of an eye. Was that what you meant?
:smiley: Not exactly, but it’s close enough.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Since God wants to seize hearts how’s He going to do that if He doesn’t even exist?
I’m not saying that He doesn’t exist. Maybe you haven’t heard or understood the definition of “atheism” according to online identity atheism thought police.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I’m not saying that He doesn’t exist. Maybe you haven’t heard or understood the definition of “atheism” according to online identity atheism thought police.
Of course. An atheist is someone who lacks or doesn’t have a belief in god or gods. You don’t necessarily disbelief in god. So God could exist. You just haven’t had sufficient evidence to establish He definitively does exist.

Some online atheists even say you could be 99% certain He does exist, but there’s that niggling doubt. Therefore you must be an atheist because you don’t have absolute certainty.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
:smiley:
I tell you what, if you should ever decide to send your idea to the UHJ in writing ...
I already did that, three times. Once was to suggest that they invite some of the protesters to meet with them to discuss their grievances. Another time was to tell them about my friendships with four of the protesters and ask if there was anything that I needed to know about them. Another time was to ask for clarification about their reasons for deciding that one of our members was not qualified for membership.

I also sent copies to the Counselors of some of my harshest online criticisms of the Baha’i Community, including “a pitiful lack of social justice and a pitiful lack of interest in doing anything about it.” I asked them to send someone to counsel me if they saw any need for it.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
If God really did exist and Bahá’u’lláh was truly His Manifestation for this day there is a risk that God could transform the heart of a hardened atheist into theist in the twinkling of an eye. Was that what you meant?
Not exactly, but it gives me a new idea about some behavior that I’ve seen in Internet discussions. I’ve noticed that sometimes when people are the most alarmed by other people’s feelings, it’s when they’re fighting against those same feelings in themselves.

That thought helps me view some behavior more sympathetically.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Not exactly, but it gives me a new idea about some behavior that I’ve seen in Internet discussions. I’ve noticed that sometimes when people are the most alarmed by other people’s feelings, it’s when they’re fighting against those same feelings in themselves.

That thought helps me view some behavior more sympathetically.

There’s a psychological defence called projective identification where we react the most strongly to what we can’t tolerate in ourselves.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Also I’ve been alarmed by a lack of social justice in the community, and a lack of interest in doing anything about it.
You are just trying to make a fool of us. You say that messages of these seven religions are outdated and then you expect us to respect you! And for what? For some uneducated 19th Century Iranian who said that he had a vision of the Maid of Heaven and is now a mirror image, a replica of Allah! And this in 21st Century! I am afraid you are asking too much from us.
I also sent copies to the Counselors of some of my harshest online criticisms of the Baha’i Community, including “a pitiful lack of social justice and a pitiful lack of interest in doing anything about it.” I asked them to send someone to counsel me if they saw any need for it.
Oh, I am sorry that you have been reported.
Not exactly, but it gives me a new idea about some behavior that I’ve seen in Internet discussions. I’ve noticed that sometimes when people are the most alarmed by other people’s feelings, it’s when they’re fighting against those same feelings in themselves. That thought helps me view some behavior more sympathetically.
:D Very chameleon like. You want to fool the atheist by posing like a near atheist!
 
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