1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The irony in the Baha'i faith

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sirona, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    31,109
    Ratings:
    +15,245
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    No, I wasn't responding to you. It's all good.
     
  2. Marcion

    Marcion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,256
    Ratings:
    +591
    Are you suggesting that individual people of the Bahai faith are misrepresenting key viewpoints of their faith?
     
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    24,445
    Ratings:
    +10,366
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    No, they cannot; otherwise they would be ex-communicated by their House of Justice.
     
  4. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    No. Sorry. Just ignore what I said. Sorry for the intrusion.
     
  5. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    31,109
    Ratings:
    +15,245
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Regarding Kalki ... in my sampradaya there is no belief in Kalki at all, so any dates for return are irrelevant. The very idea makes no sense, so how can one attach a date to something that you don't think even happens.

    As for non-Hindus within Hinduism, we have an incredibly varied take on that. There are many groups (ISKCON, Self-Realisation Fellowship, Sai Baba, ISHA, and more that have declared themselves non-Hindu, yet abide by many Hindu teachings.) Even within those groups, some people will say they're Hindu, and some won't. So it's never really that clear as to whether they are Hindu or not, as Hindu itself isn't a well-defined word. For some people, Aup (because he's atheist) or myself (because I'm a white convert) would also be excluded. So there is no overriding authority that has come up with a clear definition accepted to all. Some other faith systems have much clearer definitions.
     
    #185 Vinayaka, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,169
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    personal development and community service, with love for nature
    On second thought, I’ll try to explain. There’s a worldwide community called “the Baha’i Faith.” Many of its local communities all around the world are learning to work side by side with their neighbors to build a healthier, happier and more loving community life. Everything that it’s doing as a community revolves around that. There is no creed, no statement of beliefs that a person has to endorse to be a member. Offline, the members don’t know or care what the other members in their communities believe or don’t believe about any of the theological and administrative issues that Baha’is and former Baha’is debate about in Internet discussions with each other and with others. There was a time when some of it in some places revolved around information booths, and going up and down the sidewalk starting conversations with people and passing out flyers, like what people call “the Baha’i Faith” in Internet discussions, but that was more than twenty years ago.
     
    #186 Jim, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  7. Marcion

    Marcion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,256
    Ratings:
    +591
    It seems you somehow have a preconceived idea that there is such a thing as Hinduism which is clearly different from other traditions and that some teachings are Hindu and some are not.
    In my Samgha we never speak of Hindu teachings or Muslim or Christian teachings because the religious dimension is irrelevant to us. We only look at the actual practices people do. Those practices may be more effective (practical, tantric) or they may be less effective (ritualistic, vedic).

    What people are used to calling religion, is more vedic and less tantric. The more tantric people are, the less theoretical and the more universal and the less interested in the whole concept of religion and its many conflicts.

    My samgha is closest to mystic Sufism and closer to Buddhism and some types of socially active Christianity than it is to vedic practices of the Hindu type purely from a practical viewpoint
    The spiritual philosophy owes much more to its Hindu roots, but that is just philosophy. It is not philosophy that gives anyone any spiritual progress, it is only the day to day practices that do that. Tantra mostly consists of (tantric) practices and only a small percentage of Tantra is theory.

    What I read here of Bahai people, they seem to be more concerned with religious scriptures and its theories than with the tantric side of life. I could be wrong though because I have little knowledge of what they actually practise.
    In order to create a sort of unity in the very diverse religious theories, the Bahai put their own theory (I called that a thick sauce) over the rest. Which is a somewhat similar trick as the Christians and Muslims played when they declared that their religion replaced the older ones.
    Tantra has no interest in playing such religious theoretical games. Tantra unifies through its focus on practices rather than by using theoretical divises.

    I can understand that it gives some people a good feeling to belong to a certain section of the religious spectrum but I think in the end it is damaging to society that people create such artificial boundaries. Whether you are more into vedic practices or more into tantric types of practices, everyone is connected to and loved by the same Source and moving towards it. That makes us all one big family.
     
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    31,109
    Ratings:
    +15,245
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Hinduism is an umbrella term, and it's here to stay, whether we like it or not. It is the term most commonly used for that umbrella. People are free to use it, or not use it.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. Marcion

    Marcion Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,256
    Ratings:
    +591
    Of course people are free to use the term Hinduism in the way they wish just like people are free to call themselves proud whites or proud blacks. Many people however are not white or black or prefer to see themselves as just human.
    I don't think sufi's will take any pride in seeing themselves as muslims, they are beyond such categories.
     
  10. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    14,850
    Ratings:
    +5,351
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    They are one and the same, The Baha'i Faith is intently against schism sects and beliefs. Perhaps small disagreements on smaller issues will occur among those under the banner 'Baha'i'' but they all must respect and follow the Universal House of Justice. The Baha'i Faith was constructed to prevent the schisms that have been rampant in the previous dispensations and world religions.

    The name Baha'i does not allow for free-thinking disagreement among its members on any of the official teachings of the religion and all must observe obedience to the Universal House of Justice.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    31,109
    Ratings:
    +15,245
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Personally I don't see it so much as a question of pride, but just as pragmatism. If I'm going to a Hindu temple, I might as well say that, rather than going to a human temple. It's a useful term.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    29,521
    Ratings:
    +9,740
    Religion:
    Process of Spiritual Healing
    Christians have different concepts of god but they do agree on basic things like the authority of the bible, existence of a creator, and the need for salvation.

    It would be odd to say Hindus believes about god is so varied and that it is hard to define it yet they all are under on overarching term-Hindus. There wouldn't be a Hindu DIR if no one had a common consensus of the basics.

    But bahai is saying hindus and bahai have the same source.

    What is the nature of that source?

    It's hard to understand it from Hindu perspective because a lot of it is experiences and language based; I don't know what consciousness is, for example. I'm sure all Hindus know.

    I can't learn it from christians because they have varied descriptions of god: incarnation, human, spirit, entity, force, etc

    I don't know muslims at all (entity? force?)
    Buddhist don't have a central god figure creator

    So, since bahai believe all are from the same source, can you describe it?

    People may not agree with what you say; but, that shouldn't be an excuse not to say it, right?

    (Remember, you're talking to an atheist who has no concept of god)

    Of course people have different perspectives under the same belief but they are familiar with the basics. Since bahai says each person has the same basics/source, what are they to which each of the five (I think) religions would (in the future) agree on to build harmony among humanity?

    I'm sure each bahai has a different perspective at this, but I'm sure you guys agree on the basics?
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,965
    Religion:
    undecided
    Okay great. Now I can get back to giving the Baha'is a hard time. But it's getting harder and harder... Loverofhumanity has become such a nice guy lately. I don't know what's gotten into him?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,965
    Religion:
    undecided
    To me, there was a clear division between some very conservative Baha'is and some very liberal Baha'is. The one tended to be in positions of power and tended to be strict rules and covenant followers. The others broke rules right and left but could get along with just about anybody from the other religions. So, at the higher levels, would any of these liberal Baha'is ever get elected or appointed to positions of power?
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,497
    Ratings:
    +5,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    When it is a world Faith, bringing together all thought from all people, what else can one see but a full rainbow of personalities?

    You are only describing what it is to be human.

    Thus you can see what an amazing power it is that can weld that diversity into a group that will submit to allow that Diversity to function as a whole.

    There is no 'Hard Times' you can give a Baha'i CG, we accept that is all part of life. What you choose to dish out, is what you have to live with and it is for you to face. We as a whole will always embrace your right to do just that.

    In the end, what can you live with?

    Regards Tony
     
  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,649
    Ratings:
    +1,935
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thanks, but I am looking for the exact and actual quote from the scripture to analyze it here, as you thought it disproves Bahai Faith. Anyways, @adrian009 showed us, according to some interpretations, the kalki yoga is passed. So, if you want to prove that interpretation is not correct and kalki yoga has not come yet, you should put the actual quote and show why those who have said the kalki yoga is passed are wrong. You know what I mean? Also, there are other scriptures in Hinduism that says, Krishna manifests anytime and anywhere the Riligion declines, so, if you are referring to hindu scriptures, why not considering this one as well? I know you are an atheist hindu, but, we can see Bahai Faith is compatible with those Hinduism denominations who believe in avatars.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,497
    Ratings:
    +5,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Jim, I do not see that is the case, if you visit the National Baha'i Websites, they give a process of how to become a member of the Baha'i Community, this for Australia.

    They give the basic statement of belief one is making to become a Baha'i and what that statement will involve.

    The Faith is not unbridled Liberalism, it requires submission unto the Covenant and Laws of Baha'u'llah.

    Becoming a Baha'i - Australian Baha'i Community

    In saying that there is a compassionate flexibility in the way the covenant and laws are applied, as it is known it takes time and effort to practice what Baha'u'llah has offered to the world.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    14,850
    Ratings:
    +5,351
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    The ultimate seat of authority is the Universal House of Justice for all Baha'is. They would be the final arbiter on what is acceptable and unacceptable for a Baha'i to believe and propagate. Can what you call 'very liberal' Bahai's be elected to the Universal House of Justice? That would be unchartered waters.
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    9,986
    Ratings:
    +8,710
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    You’ll have an uphill battle trying to convince everyone the following three individuals were not Hindus. Sure you could label them upstarts and associate them with criminals but it just looks like you are trying to malign their characters because they disagree with you.

    Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri - Wikipedia

    Paramahansa Yogananda - Wikipedia

    Jaggi Vasudev - Wikipedia

    As they all believe the Kali-yuga has ended, there is clearly no consensus in Hinduism and why would there be? We’re talking about numbers taken from texts that are highly mythological. We all know how diverse Hinduism is and so its not surprising there is diversity of opinion in understanding of the Kalki Avatar that appears at the end of the Kali-yuga.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    11,497
    Ratings:
    +5,153
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    This is one thing he offered, by a book review;

    "The purpose of this book is to show as clearly as possible that there is an essential unity in all religions; that there is no difference in the truths inculcated by the various faiths; that there is but one method by which the world, both external and internal, has evolved; and that there is but one Goal admitted by all scriptures."

    I like it that God inspires people to give a Message in tune with that age they live.

    Regards Tony
     
    #200 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...