The Injustice Proposed by the Belief System of Hell and the Tyrannical Cruelty of God

[Druidus]

That's a rather beautiful post, Melody. I think you've worded it quite well, and I wish I weren't out of frubals for the day because you certainly deserve some!

I agree.

I don't know Druidus' motives in allowing people into heaven, and he is an imperfect human himself, so is it mercy that he allows everyone into heaven even if they don't believe in him...or because he identifies with them and can relate to them?

God is a perfect being. Man has spit at Him, cursed Him, crucified Him and continued to behave abominably...and yet He said that if we just "believe" and accept Christ's sacrifice, we can still be saved. Not because He identifies with us, but for no other reason than that He loves us. That's mercy.

I've spent 20 minutes trying to say what's in my head and this is a pitiful attempt. I'll have to think on this more and see if I can word it better.

Melody, perhaps I would agree with this argument if, God, in her wisdom, gave a sign of her existence and directed will. She has not.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

I think that might be the issue. Many people don't believe in a hell. Why would they be going to it if they don't believe in it? To assume they are is to assume that yours is the one and true faith.

Which by the way I believe. Just because you don't believe in the Moon makes it non-existant? Come on, you know better.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Don't worry, Sunstone! I've got 'em to spare, and she deserves 'em.

And I respect that you believe that, Uncertaindrummer. I imagine you can see the difference in being able to look up into the sky and see the moon, versus having an afterlife that one cannot see, except from the other side. I imagine you'll also respect me enough to imagine I 'know better'.

 

[Uncertaindrummer]

Don't worry, Sunstone! I've got 'em to spare, and she deserves 'em.

And I respect that you believe that, Uncertaindrummer. I imagine you can see the difference in being able to look up into the sky and see the moon, versus having an afterlife that one cannot see, except from the other side. I imagine you'll also respect me enough to imagine I 'know better'.

Meh. So one person could says its just an optical illusion. I think you got my point though.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Meh. So one person could says its just an optical illusion. I think you got my point though.

No, actually. It reinforced my own and the point of Druidus, but thank you.

 

[Mister Emu]

Feathers, I do believe that the point, regardless of evidence is that reality is not dependant on belief.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Feathers, I do believe that the point, regardless of evidence is that reality is not dependant on belief.

And it was a good point. Again, I celebrate that you and others believe that this is reality. I simply say that I believe in a different reality. I would not try or want to change your beliefs on the matter. I respect that your religion says that something is one way, and I think you are trying to be the greatest friend you can be in trying to save me from that. I just also think that it is my right to say 'I believe otherwise."

 

[Natas]

I think heaven and hell are man-made concepts devised to scare believers from straying from the "flock", and to scare non-believers into joining the "flock".


During the early stages of Christianity...

"It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death. Christians now turned on Christians, maiming and slaughtering thousands because of a difference of opinion." Source

A threat of spiritual death and/or imprisonment was also devised.

"Jesus had more to say about hell than about heaven, and he spoke of hell as a place of punishment where the wicked are "cast," and where the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44,47).

"As several modern commentators have noted, hell would be horrible enough if only for the absolute absence of God. But the Bible does not leave the matter there. Our attempts to evade the biblical doctrine of hell weaken our understanding of the Gospel and confuse a world..." Source

The same recruiting and retaining methods of reward and punishment are in use today by the Christian church.

 

[Ulver]

See, and that's where I disagree. Some animals (in my opinion) have no souls, but are very much aware of being :}.

so what are they.... zombies?

On the other hand, if Hell is absence from God's presence, as some say, then I'll look forward to many uneventful days throughout eternity, hanging out with most of the notable figures of science and philosophy. (No Lewis Caroll, though... Shame. I'm sure Einstien would love to meet him.) On top of that, I'll join that Hell Rebellion for Satan's thrown, as well, just for kicks and giggles.

I think you make a brilliant point here that I was planning to bring up as well. More then likely the christian interrpetation of hell is "being in the absence of God". Most of the visions of fire and brimstone seem to apply to other matters or were simply nightmares made up by some early clergy by combining local folk-lore with their own imagination.

Though when we now think of "what" hell is, then it really becomes dependent upon "what" God is.

If god is simply a supreme being of independent concious that is not directly connected to existence in a panthiestic manner, then it's easy to assume there might be a lot outside of the domain of God (ie. what is in the abyss that is the absence of that God).... perhaps Valhalla and the Ancient Norse Gods of Asgard... or perhaps outside of God lurks the Ancient Ones (cthulhu)... perhaps God tried to create order out of the chaos that was THEIR realm, yet they still persist outside..... or perhaps not.

it is said that the living can not understand the World to Come any more than a blind man can understand color

it's just not a big issue for judaism.

I think the world would be better off if Christianity and Islam had retained that belief from Judaism. Something that indeed makes sense.

Thou art God, I am God, the trees are God, the grass is God, the tiger is God, the stag is God; all is God. Everything is an aspect of the Source, and "God" enough for me.

Another concept that makes a lot of sense to me. You might find this interesting: Transcendentalism

God punished (Satan/Lucifer) for attempting to exalt himself above his Creator

Some societies view(ed) that the eventual usurpering of the Father by the Son is natural.

So, yes I believe that Hell exists. No, I don't believe you will go there. I believe you will go to Heaven and will be very surprised at how many of your fellow Druids you see when you get there.

I have to say I'm surprised by that statement because I didn't think the Mormon/LDS church held beliefs like that.... unless this is just your personal beleif and not you church's?

Feathers, I do believe that the point, regardless of evidence is that reality is not dependant on belief.

Maybe.... mabe not... regardless you should try giving this book a read:American Gods

np: Lunar Aurora- Die Nacht

 

[dorsk188]

I think you make a brilliant point here...

:woohoo:Finally the recognition I deserve... lol... Anyway...

I did just want to pop in and say that what jewscout said about "blind man knowing color" is probably a lot more sagelike than the Christian/Muslim views, but obviously makes for less exciting evangelism.

Clearly, there are many views of the "best" afterlife and what it should be like. If I were God, I would let people have what they want, I think that's the most merciful system. For those that like worshipping, that's what you get. For those who like the transient world, reincarnation... Or, if they wish to cease to exist, that's their choice, as well. It seems that the fairest system isn't any single system.

 

[Katzpur]

I have to say I'm surprised by that statement because I didn't think the Mormon/LDS church held beliefs like that.... unless this is just your personal beleif and not you church's?

This is definitely LDS doctrine and not just a statement of my personal belief. We don't believe that everyone who ends up in Heaven will receive an equal portion of God's glory, but all who do go there (which includes the vast, vast majority of all humankind), will be glorified to some degree and will enjoy an afterlife that far surpasses this life. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies.

 

[Druidus]

Reality, according to quantum physics, is, actually, dependant upon the observer and her beliefs.

Interesting. Do Druids consider God as, the All, as some sort of pantheism? Do you consider that God is objectively, everything in existence?

Druids have the Source as an impersonal "God", with or without intelligence (depending on the Druid). Everything is a part of the Source, just cut off from it. In this regard, we all are Gods, as all of us collectively make up the Source.

 

[jonny]

I have to say I'm surprised by that statement because I didn't think the Mormon/LDS church held beliefs like that.... unless this is just your personal beleif and not you church's?

What part of Katzpur's statement surprised you?

 

[jonny]

"It wasn't until 451, at the Council of Chalcedon that, with the approval of the Pope, the Nicene/Constantinople Creed was set as authoritative. Debate on the matter was no longer tolerated; to speak out against the Trinity was now considered blasphemy, and such earned stiff sentences that ranged from mutilation to death.

So that's why everyone thinks the Mormons are going to Hell because they don't believe in the Trinity! I believe in it too if those were the choices I was given.