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Featured The illogical logic...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Segev Moran, May 22, 2017.

  1. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    No offense, but if I can get it, anybody can.
     
  2. crowfeather

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    That's what I assumed, for many years. But it's not so. I hope realizing this takes you less time than it took me.
     
  3. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    Segev, have you considered the possibility that your reasons for taking action and those of theists are roughly the same, but that we may tend to rationalize our decisions differently? We all learn the difference between right and wrong from our parents. In childhood, parental advice and adult authority define morality. As we mature, our peers and society at large play an increasing role. We all acquire our values from the same place, and theistic morality can be seen as little more than a transfer effect from adult authority in our formative years and theistic authority in the later years. A coming of age. For non-theists, the rationale for our instincts and conscience--the autopilot that runs our daily behavior--must differ. It becomes more abstract. A lot of atheists become humanists, seeing society at large as setting the bars for ethical and moral decisions. More intellectual individuals resort to philosophical doctrines such as consequentialism. In the end, though, our values were defined by those who raised us.
     
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  4. LukeS

    LukeS Active Member

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    I think that some religious people view morality as numinous: "arousing spiritual or religious emotion; mysterious or awe-inspiring". Its revered similarly as God, its from God. Like with an artwork, a fake is less valuable than an authentic masterpiece, so the buzz of ownership is different. To one person its a warm feeling, to another its the Holy Spirit. To one its a series of social commands and values, to another its the key to happiness for evermore.
     
  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Are you saying that your God can't keep up with logic?

    Is there even a reason to care about him then?
     
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    That's fair enough, i am speaking from personal expedience, your view may be different depending on which side of the fence you sit.
     
  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Ok so i missed out the word "other" as in "some other animals."

    I differentiate between different animals because there are some that do show morality, (i have observed great acts by animals on several occasions) and some that don't, the honey badger is an example.

    An insect colony would have no concept of rape so rape in that context is a moot point

    As to why? Who knows? But for sure you wouldn't get far by flouting or ignoring group morality, the prisons are full of those who tried.
     
  8. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    Apparently these animals also abide by no rules about killing the innocent or stealing, in addition to abiding to no moral rules about rape. That just leads back to the question I asked: how is it possible for these animals to "thrive" and "stay together" (in tightly packed colonies, no less)?
     
  9. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    When and how was that hypothesis tested?

    Where would anyone get the idea that insects abide by moral rules regarding rape, killing the innocent, stealing, etc.?
     
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  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Morality : principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.

    Who are you to dictate what is right and wrong to another species?
     
  11. Akivah

    Akivah Well-Known Member

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    I have the exact same problem with Christians that want to debate me. We have differing texts and authorities, thus have completely different glossaries.

    Because your definitions are based on a dictionary that someone wrote, the Jewish definition is based on how the word is used in the Tanakh.

    Because you've probably been talking only to Christians. LOL.

    I'm not seeing much difference with your elderly assistance example from my take on it. Your logical reasons for providing the assistance are fine. I agree with all of them: I too would like to receive assistance when I'm elderly, I too would like to set an example for others. But I have a cherry on top because such an action is a mitzvah that G-d commanded us to do, and I choose to do it of my own freewill.

    Have you had religious instruction and training? If not, then you're lacking the knowledge that theists have. If so, then I don't know why you are unable to relate.

    Challenges can be interesting, so I thought I'd give it a go.

    Math to me is equations and calculations. It is a discipline that was invented and discovered by humans. We first had to learn how to count.
     
  12. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    I can't understand not logic.
     
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  13. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    Are you trying to suggest that insects do abide by moral precepts? Just state that argument by which you have concluded such.
     
  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    There is none. He's just practicing on being arcane and sagacious. Haven't you noticed all abstruse and cryptic comments he makes. It's not what is said, but how it's said that's important.

    .
     
  15. crowfeather

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    That is the fate of atheists. Demanding freedom, they lose it, and lose their souls too.
    Still, not to worry: logic is so great isn't it?
     
  16. miodrag

    miodrag Member

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    Logos and logic are of the same origin. If some religion is at odds with logic, then it is in trouble.
     
  17. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    I suspect nothing is a "logic-thing," for some people. Then again, god isn't actually a thing to these people either. Once you strip away their fears, judgments, anxieties, and narcissism, you realize that god has nothing to do with their petty, fearful, and vindictive nature and actions.
     
  18. crowfeather

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    Nobody has any clue, in the Western world what 'God' is. It's plenty real, but not to them, and not in the form they expect.
    There's nothing wrong with agnosticism. It's what precedes - and permits - knowing.
     
  19. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    If there is a god, nobody, anywhere, knows anything about it. All presumptions about god, by men, are nothing more than inventions of the human psyche for human needs.
     
  20. Segev Moran

    Segev Moran Well-Known Member

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    as i see it, moral is based on billions of years of evolution. you can find moral "codes" in every specie in nature, yet we are the only specie that can discuss it (as far as we know)

    looking at our own specie, we used to have a very different moral code. it took dozens of thousands of years for us to become as "moral" as we are.

    so for me a moral, is way for our society of animals to promise a better survival rate of our species.

    we painfully learned that looks doesn't have anything to do with your quality as a human.
    we painfully learned that belief doesn't have anything to do with your quality as a human.
    we painfully learned that males and females should be treated equally.
    we painfully learned any social understanding of the "modern world".

    moral is another social understanding.
    Yes and no.
    they are the same, but many call it god ;)
     
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