The Illegal Immigration Thread

[Mister_T]

This thread is in respone to another thread that I didn't want to drag off topic. Any concerns or issues you have with Illegal Immigration can be put here though.

Do you think it the right to live in the US is everyones?

Depends on what you mean by "everyone."

Should the entire Globe just come on over and live here?

Does the entire globe want to come live over here? No. Many people around the world would spit on the idea of moving here. I don't see how such a notion could be relevent or even possible. Moving on....

Is it just the poor?

Exclusivly the poor? No. However I do think they should get a certain preference over those who are well off wanting to come here. After all this is the land of opportunity and a better life. Read the poem accompanied with on the Statue of Liberty if you think otherwise.

Just Mexicans?

No. Any good standing person who is need of a better lifestyle should be welcomed here.

Do you have a criteria for who can be illegal and it's ok and who can't or do you just want to open the flood gates and let everyone use up our tax dollars?

First off, No I don't beleive in opening up the floodgates to everyone nor have I hinted at such. No I don't have a criteria. When is an illegal immigrant not illegal? When they're legal of course, which means they'll have a social from which you can tax them from. Thus making your tax dollar "dillema" non-existent.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Any good standing person who is need of a better lifestyle should be welcomed here.

How would you regulate this?
How would you handle our border issue with Mexico?

 

[Mister_T]

How would you regulate this?

For example, those with a record of what we would consider serious crimes (history of violence) should be denied like it is now.

How would you handle our border issue with Mexico?

Lower the cost of immigrating here and make the time it takes for processing way more effiecient and reasonable than it currently is. Many illegal immigrants would be legal if just the latter were implemented.

 

[Dunemeister]

Lower the cost of immigrating here and make the time it takes for processing way more effiecient and reasonable than it currently is. Many illegal immigrants would be legal if just the latter were implemented.

:yes:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

For example, those with a record of what we would consider serious crimes (history of violence) should be denied like it is now.

Lower the cost of immigrating here and make the time it takes for processing way more effiecient and reasonable than it currently is. Many illegal immigrants would be legal if just the latter were implemented.

What if they want their anonymity (drug smuggler) and just cross the border anyway. Will their be a beefed-up border deterrent?

 

[NoahideHiker]

I feel as many do; immigrants are a key part of the American dream and the fabric of our nation and they should ways be allowed to come here...but (ya knew it was coming)...it needs to be regulated. I want the borders sealed tighter than Tupperware and the wave of immigration from Mexico stopped. Illegal immigration is modern day slavery. We have laws against it on both sides of the border and they should be enforced. Start catching and deporting offenders. Start catching and fining/shutting down the businesses who hire them. End the slavery in the name of cheaper lettuce and strawberries and construction.

Palm Beach Post 3-part Series on modern slavery

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

What I keep hearing is that America is a horrible country because we don't let all the poor people come and live in the United States without any regulation or procedure for becoming US Citizens. I have heard that it is OK to break unjust laws. That Jesus would want the US to open its arms to the dirty and down trodden. That Americans are evil horrible people for enforcing their laws on poor helpless immigrants who only want to live in this country to better themselves.

I say BS. Seal the borders. Identify anyone in this country who is illegal and put them on the track to becoming legal or if they have a criminal record deport them. Enforce the laws that are on the books. If the people of the United States think these laws are unjust then vote to change them. I'm fine with changing the laws if it makes sense to do so but I'm not ok with having illegal immigrants stealing children and raping them. I'm not ok with MS13 ruling the streets of our cities. I'm not ok with terrorists crossing the border anytime they want. Read the headlines people.

Control is not an evil word. Having a secure border is not oppressive. Enforcing the law is not the wrong thing to do.

 

[sandandfoam]

What I keep hearing is that America is a horrible country because we don't let all the poor people come and live in the United States without any regulation or procedure for becoming US Citizens. I have heard that it is OK to break unjust laws. That Jesus would want the US to open its arms to the dirty and down trodden. That Americans are evil horrible people for enforcing their laws on poor helpless immigrants who only want to live in this country to better themselves.

I say BS. Seal the borders. Identify anyone in this country who is illegal and put them on the track to becoming legal or if they have a criminal record deport them. Enforce the laws that are on the books. If the people of the United States think these laws are unjust then vote to change them. I'm fine with changing the laws if it makes sense to do so but I'm not ok with having illegal immigrants stealing children and raping them. I'm not ok with MS13 ruling the streets of our cities. I'm not ok with terrorists crossing the border anytime they want. Read the headlines people.

Control is not an evil word. Having a secure border is not oppressive. Enforcing the law is not the wrong thing to do.

Fear of foreigners is not what made your country great. Immigration is.

 

[Mister_T]

I'm not ok with having illegal immigrants stealing children and raping them. I'm not ok with MS13 ruling the streets of our cities. I'm not ok with terrorists crossing the border anytime they want.

Yes, because we all know all illegal immigrants are kidnapping child rapists, gang members and terrorists, just like anti-immigration supporters are all bigots, right?

Makes you wonder how on earth people could think Americans are so horrible and mean-spirited.

That Americans are evil horrible people for enforcing their laws on poor helpless immigrants who only want to live in this country to better themselves.

This selective "enforcing of laws" is another eyeroller. There's a whole list of laws that aren't being enforced in this country, yet this is the only one that gets any attention. What makes Americans "evil and horrible" is the lengths they'll go to of spreading of lies and propaganda about a group of individuals in order to further their cause.

Control is not an evil word.

It is when it's only against one group of people. These same people don't gives a rat's patootie about illegal Canadian immigrants. Considering how strongly they feel about our "laws being enforced," they surely would be mentioned when talking about illegal immigrants.

Having a secure border is not oppressive.

Spreading propaganda and lies in order to keep a group of people out of here, is.

Enforcing the law is not the wrong thing to do.

Here's a whole list of laws that need upholding. Dumb Laws, Stupid Laws: We have weird laws, strange laws, and just plain crazy laws!

Surely you will be as passionate about upholding those laws, seeing how important it is to abide them.

 

[Magic Man]

Fear of foreigners is not what made your country great. Immigration is.

Except that it's not a fear of foreigners. Legal immigration is what made our country great (although that can be argued, as some would say that it was great before the immigration began). The problem is that our government has a hard enough time providing for and taking care of the people that are already here. It's not that people like Trey are against immigration, but there has to be a limit. Why do you not let just any person who needs help or needs a home to live in your house?

 

[Mister_T]

What if they want their anonymity (drug smuggler) and just cross the border anyway. Will their be a beefed-up border deterrent?

Prosecute them just like you would any other drug dealer caught in this country. Keep in mind though, that crossing the boder to deal drugs is a two way street.

 

[sandandfoam]

Except that it's not a fear of foreigners. Legal immigration is what made our country great (although that can be argued, as some would say that it was great before the immigration began). The problem is that our government has a hard enough time providing for and taking care of the people that are already here. It's not that people like Trey are against immigration, but there has to be a limit. Why do you not let just any person who needs help or needs a home to live in your house?

Immigrants to the US from Ireland were often the poorest of the poor escaping famine and destitution. History shows they were of benefit to your country, would diseased and starving people be allowed enter in such numbers today?

 

[YmirGF]

Do you think it the right to live in the US is everyone’s?

Depends on what you mean by "everyone."

I think what To'D is meaning that "everyone" who gets the idea that it would be cool to come to the USA without being particularly concerned about the current immigrations laws and consciously breaks said laws in doing so. Such people are effectively thumbing their noses at established procedure and are a direct affront to those who do follow such guidelines. In theory, everyone has a "right" to become an American citizen but with that right come specific obligations which should only be set aside under the direst circumstances. Is there a problem with this?

Should the entire Globe just come on over and live here?

Does the entire globe want to come live over here? No. Many people around the world would spit on the idea of moving here. I don't see how such a notion could be relevent or even possible. Moving on...

The art of hair-splitting is always nice to see. I suspect what To'D is implying is that "Should America simply dismantle her immigration requirements and be done with the whole sordid business?" although it is indeed somewhat obliquely phrased.

Is it just the poor?

Exclusivly the poor? No. However I do think they should get a certain preference over those who are well off wanting to come here. After all this is the land of opportunity and a better life. Read the poem accompanied with on the Statue of Liberty if you think otherwise.

Oddly, I have never encountered a person who enjoyed people cutting in front of them in a queue, be it a lineup for a movie, nightclub or even when out for a drive. I would think that in order to preserve the sanctity of the poetic sentiments above that all efforts should be made to stop individuals who do not want to play by the rules. It would seem to be a poor way to start ones citizenship by flouting the very laws of the land one wishes to become a part of. What’s up with that kind of thinking, eh? Sadly, ones economic situation should have no bearing on their case otherwise you run the risk of discrimination.

Just Mexicans?

No. Any good standing person who is need of a better lifestyle should be welcomed here.

So, that begs the question just how does breaking the laws of your nation keep the individual in good standing? Theoretically such people have knee-capped themselves by their illegal actions.

Do you have a criteria for who can be illegal and it's ok and who can't or do you just want to open the flood gates and let everyone use up our tax dollars?

First off, No I don't beleive in opening up the floodgates to everyone nor have I hinted at such. No I don't have a criteria. When is an illegal immigrant not illegal? When they're legal of course, which means they'll have a social from which you can tax them from. Thus making your tax dollar "dillema" non-existent.

But Mister_T, your so-called floodgates are already open and the vermin are pouring in -- en masse. Amusingly you say you don’t have any criteria and then in the very next breath you give your criteria. That is amusing. One gets the impression that you are in favor of granting amnesty to the illegal immigrants, as that is the only way I know of that they can become “legal” immigrants. At such future date, indeed they would begin paying their fair share of taxes, but until then they are creating a tremendous drain on your medical, education, policing, welfare and court resources.

Is that supposed to be reasonable thinking? :areyoucra

 

[Magic Man]

Immigrants to the US from Ireland were often the poorest of the poor escaping famine and destitution. History shows they were of benefit to your country, would diseased and starving people be allowed enter in such numbers today?

It's a different situation today.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Yes, because we all know all illegal immigrants are kidnapping child rapists, gang members and terrorists, just like anti-immigration supporters are all bigots, right? .

Ok, I say I have a problem with illegal immigrants raping children in this country and you claim that I said ALL illegal immigrants are child rapists. This is the problem with discussing the issue with people like you. All you can do is twist things to support your views.

For the record, I don't think all immigrants are rapists. I don't have anything against immigrants. I believe the process could be made better but it should be followed none the less. I'm not against amneisty but feel the flood should be stopped.

And a special thanks to YmirGF for being better at discussing the issue than I am. I wish I could have said it as well as you did.

Oh and Stephenw, I'm not afraid of foreigners, I spent many years growing up in the Middle East and have traveled extensively across the globe. I welcome peoples from all walks of life to this country and wish all the friends I have met who want to move here could do so. To bad there are so many illegal immigrants making it hard for all of them.

 

[Mister_T]

I think what To'D is meaning that "everyone" who gets the idea that it would be cool to come to the USA without being particularly concerned about the current immigrations laws and consciously breaks said laws in doing so. Such people are effectively thumbing their noses at established procedure and are a direct affront to those who do follow such guidelines. In theory, everyone has a "right" to become an American citizen but with that right come specific obligations which should only be set aside under the direst circumstances. Is there a problem with this?

I think not eating everyday is a pretty dire circumstance, wouldn't you? As I've stated earleir many illegal immigrants who are here in the U.S. are here waiting for their application from 5-8 years ago to be processed. What is a mother and her family supposed to do after her husband's a working citizen and her papers are in process? Wait close to ten years to come over here? Seems like dire enough circumstances to set aside said obligations.

The art of hair-splitting is always nice to see. I suspect what To'D is implying is that "Should America simply dismantle her immigration requirements and be done with the whole sordid business?" although it is indeed somewhat obliquely phrased.

The art of clearly articulating your sentences is even nicer to see.

Oddly, I have never encountered a person who enjoyed people cutting in front of them in a queue, be it a lineup for a movie, nightclub or even when out for a drive. I would think that in order to preserve the sanctity of the poetic sentiments above that all efforts should be made to stop individuals who do not want to play by the rules. It would seem to be a poor way to start ones citizenship by flouting the very laws of the land one wishes to become a part of. What’s up with that kind of thinking, eh? Sadly, ones economic situation should have no bearing on their case otherwise you run the risk of discrimination.

I don't think the circumstances of waiting in line for a nightclub, a movie or driving are on par with waiting in line for immigrating to the USA from a poverty stricken nation, but hey, I'm radical like that. As for your "preservation of sanctity" I will have to respectfully disagree: Economic situations do have bearin despite what you think. Those who are well off and can pay all the fees (and lawyer costs) can get here with no problem, while those who are dirt poor are having to take a back seat. To some people it may be a poor way to start ones citizenship, but it sure beats the alternative of seperated families and not eating everyday. If the laws are bogus to begin with and the powers that be don't want to change them, I don't blame people for taking matters into their own hands.

If black people didn't break bogus laws, we'd still have segragated facilities.

So, that begs the question just how does breaking the laws of your nation keep the individual in good standing? Theoretically such people have knee-capped themselves by their illegal actions.

If you read, I gave my definition of what I consider good standing earlier in the thread.

For example, those with a record of what we would consider serious crimes (history of violence) should be denied like it is now.

But Mister_T, your so-called floodgates are already open and the vermin are pouring in -- en masse.

Part of the problem is refering to this group as "vermin."

Amusingly you say you don’t have any criteria and then in the very next breath you give your criteria. That is amusing.

That is amusing: I don't see where I gave a criteria of which group can be illegal and which group I said couldn't. Perhaps you'd like to point that out.

One gets the impression that you are in favor of granting amnesty to the illegal immigrants, as that is the only way I know of that they can become “legal” immigrants.

Actually it was pointing out a flaw in Trey's tax dillema that he presented. Since reading this thread thoroughly has obvioulsy eluded you, I'll point you to the non-amnesty illegal immigrant "solution:"

Lower the cost of immigrating here and make the time it takes for processing way more effiecient and reasonable than it currently is. Many illegal immigrants would be legal if just the latter were implemented.

At such future date, indeed they would begin paying their fair share of taxes, but until then they are creating a tremendous drain on your medical, education, policing, welfare and court resources.

Our drain on our medical has to do with the uninsured, which is made up of legal and non-legal citizens alike. Medical though is really a whole seperate issue.

I don't understand how illegal immigrants are a drain on our education. Perhaps you'd to elaborate on that a bit. Outside of immigration raids, how are illegal immigrants draining our police and court resources?

Welfare Ymir? Illegal iimgrants aren't even eligible for Welfare. Nice try.

Is that supposed to be reasonable thinking?

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[Mister_T]

Ok, I say I have a problem with illegal immigrants raping children in this country and you claim that I said ALL illegal immigrants are child rapists. This is the problem with discussing the issue with people like you. All you can do is twist things to support your views.

The problem is the number of illegal immigrants that commit those crimes is a fraction of the total population. Why would the actions of a few account for the entire community? That's like blaming the entire state of Texas for racism because they have KKK groups residing there. Who's doing the twisting to support views here?

For the record, I don't think all immigrants are rapists. I don't have anything against immigrants. I believe the process could be made better but it should be followed none the less. I'm not against amneisty but feel the flood should be stopped.

If you don't think all immigrants are child rapist, why bring it up then to use against them when stating your case?

Aside from that, you and I are not in total disagreement. I think the issue could be fixed with the solutions I gave earlier.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

The problem is the number of illegal immigrants that commit those crimes is a fraction of the total population. Why would the actions of a few account for the entire community? That's like blaming the entire state of Texas for racism because they have KKK groups residing there. Who's doing the twisting to support views here?

For the record. I am not, and never have, said anything about the immigrant community as a whole. We aren't discussing the community we are discussing entering this country illegally.

The reason child rapists comes up is when you have unsecure borders, criminals enter the country illegally. This should be stopped. But to do so you have to stop the so called poor people who just want to come here for some food and shelter. You say the number of criminals isn't enough to enforce this law and I say it is. I have a 5 year old daughter. I live in Houston. I read the headlines. Am I afraid of immigrants? No. But I do worry about my family when I read about an illegal immigrant using the railways to travel from victim to victim. Or another rape, or gang activity or etc, etc. Are you going to deny the headlines?

As mentioned, I'm not one of those who wants to send all the Mexicans home. I would be ok with Amnesty or something similar that would bring the people living here now over to legality. But stop the flow! You dislike the term vermin but vermin are coming across along with everyone else and by your own admission they shouldn't be so what's your solution? If you don't have one then you are part of the problem.

 

[Mister_T]

For the record. I am not, and never have, said anything about the immigrant community as a whole. We aren't discussing the community we are discussing entering this country illegally.

I never said you were generalizing all those who immigrated here, just the illegal ones. This issue in this thread is about about illegal immigrants. The community in question (illegal immigrants), did come here illegally. My question still stands.

The reason child rapists comes up is when you have unsecure borders, criminals enter the country illegally. This should be stopped. But to do so you have to stop the so called poor people who just want to come here for some food and shelter. You say the number of criminals isn't enough to enforce this law and I say it is.

Again, why should the entire community pay for the sins of a few? We don't make the entire state of Texas pay for the sins of the KKK. How is that fair?

I read the headlines. Am I afraid of immigrants? No. But I do worry about my family when I read about an illegal immigrant using the railways to travel from victim to victim. Or another rape, or gang activity or etc, etc. Are you going to deny the headlines?

I would like to read all of those headlines you keep seeing, so I can see exactly how common of an occurance illegal immigrants using railways to commit the act of rape is. You got any? I'd also like to see some headlines on illegal immigrants being a major source of gang activitey, seeing as it's esimated that most gangs are compromised of domestic citizens.

As mentioned, I'm not one of those who wants to send all the Mexicans home. I would be ok with Amnesty or something similar that would bring the people living here now over to legality. But stop the flow! You dislike the term vermin but vermin are coming across along with everyone else and by your own admission they shouldn't be so what's your solution? If you don't have one then you are part of the problem.

And Texas is has racists but I apply the term appropriately to those individuals, rather than friviously to the entire bunch of them.

And I have gave my solution repeatedly throughout this thread. The only problem I see is certain people don't pay attention to detail, which is apparent in more than one way.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

And I have gave my solution repeatedly throughout this thread. The only problem I see is certain people don't pay attention to detail, which is apparent in more than one way.

Where? All I see is a bunch of excuses for why it's ok to be an illegal alien and suggestions to make the process cheap and easy. How do you stop the flow? That is the question you never answer. Are you ok with the flow or not? You say criminals should be dealt with. How? if Illegal immigrants don't have to register and go through a background check then how do you discover the criminals?