1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The idolatry of Christianity

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by AlonNaor, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,997
    Ratings:
    +12,274
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    You either are not reading my posts carefully or are just playing games, plus there are some "twists" of what I actually posted, whether it was accidental or intentional on your part that I simply am not even going to deal with.

    Your position is not even remotely logical, and also let me recommend reading up in the "Pharisees" since archaeologists know that there were at least four groups, maybe more. If my memory is correct, even the Wiki article on the Pharisees alludes to this, although my use of "four" came from an archaeological source since I worked on a dig at the edge of the highlands n.w. of Jerusalem, and it wasn't a "Christian" one, btw.

    The Pharisees were more of a movement than a branch, especially since their approach was more based on scripture, and we all know that different people and groups tend to have different takes on what's written. However, they are not the same branches of Judaism that we see today.

    Anyhow, I'm just going to move on and, as a matter of fact, I probably shouldn't even have responded at all because of your know-it-all attitude. You're simply not the "last word" on Christianity or Judaism-- neither am I.
     
  2. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,596
    Ratings:
    +918
    Religion:
    Judaism
    I can't reply to your "archaeological source" since you can't supply it, and since you apparently can't even list the four groups so that I can research them.

    As for the Wiki on the Pharisaical schools that you have appealed to, this is the sum total of what it says:
    "One sign of the Pharisaic emphasis on debate and differences of opinion is that the Mishnah and Talmud mark different generations of scholars in terms of different pairs of contending schools. In the first century, for example, the two major Pharisaic schools were those of Hillel and Shammai. After Hillel died in 20 CE, Shammai assumed the office of president of the Sanhedrin until he died in 30 CE. Followers of these two sages dominated scholarly debate over the following decades. Although the Talmud records the arguments and positions of the school of Shammai, the teachings of the school of Hillel were ultimately taken as authoritative."
    Pharisees - Wikipedia

    IOW, exactly as I have presented.
     
  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,694
    Ratings:
    +1,497
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Weren't the Pharisees a political party that came to power in the intertestamental period?
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,997
    Ratings:
    +12,274
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Yes and no. Yes in that they gradually became the more dominant branch during the 2nd Temple period, but they contained different "schools", and sometimes things got rather nasty between them. After the destruction of that Temple, the Hillel School became the more dominant one. However, there were still other Jewish groups, such as the Samaritans, the Karaites, and the Essene, with the latter getting wiped out a bit later by the Romans. I've seen where they hid their scrolls near the Dead Sea, and that was exciting even though we were not allowed to actually go into the cave.

    With this being the case, clearly the Hillel School and the "Jesus School" weren't on the same page or they likely would have merged or more cooperated together, but they didn't. On top of that, there were the Ebionites who seem to have favored Hillel's approach of feeling that the letter of the Law must still be followed, which put them at odds with the Jesus movement. But notice I used the word "seem" as we know very little about the Ebionites in reality.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,694
    Ratings:
    +1,497
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Interesting. Yet Jesus states the teaching of the Pharisees was to be followed.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,997
    Ratings:
    +12,274
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Yes, but I think we need to try and put that into context.

    IMO, Jesus felt and taught that the love of God and love of man (and women) was the basis for the entire Law, all 613 of them. Therefore, I believe he felt as long as one did that, the letter of the Law need not be followed. Hillel, otoh, felt much the same but not to the point whereas the letter of the Law could be left behind.

    This explains, imo, why the Jewish leaders are frequently asking Jesus questions dealing with the Law, and also why they were getting increasingly upset with him. If Jesus was just preaching basic adherence to the Law, then we would NOT have likely seen such a conflict and its outcome.

    Also, and I think it's an important point, namely that if any male Gentile converted over to a Jewish group, circumcision was mandated. And yet Paul says they must not do this as Jesus was more important than the Law, according to him. The idea of a Jewish group ignoring the mandate that one needed to be circumcised has no precedent. One could be a God-Fearer and not be circumcised, but then they are not "officially" Jewish. And the Law has limitations on Jewish/Gentile intermixing as you well know.

    I think Paul saw the handwriting on the wall, whereas having two groups (Jewish & Gentiles) having two different sets of rules simply would not work. How about communal dinners: kosher or not? How about intermarriage? If a mixed marriage, how about the following of halacha (Jewish Law that included accepting some of the commentaries)? How would the children of such marriages be raised? Etc.

    Therefore, I think Paul concluded, and probably rightfully so, that this would not work out, thus probably leading to his teaching that Jesus was more important to follow than the letter of the Law.

    I don't know if you agree with the above or not, but I would be interested in your take.

    Take care.
     
    #106 metis, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  7. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,694
    Ratings:
    +1,497
    Religion:
    Catholic
    What is the relation of the 613 precepts and the Mosaic Law of Exodus and the Decalogue? Were they added later, during the Babylonian Exile?

    I think for Paul Jesus was the embodiment of the Law.
     
    #107 pcarl, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  8. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,694
    Ratings:
    +1,497
    Religion:
    Catholic
    According to some of Josephus 'nasty' is an understatement.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,997
    Ratings:
    +12,274
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Right after coming down from Mt. Sinai, Moses continues to add additional Laws that he states are from God. Thus, when we continue on reading through Torah, all the 613 Laws show up, and some of them are repeated. See: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

    The Decalogue are just the first 10 Laws, which Moses brought down in tablet form to show the other Israelites as being proof that these were from God. The commentaries, otoh, were gradually accumulated over time, and the "Oral Law" was very much a large part of that. The "Oral Law", however, was not in their entirely accepted by the other Jewish groups, some of which, like the Samaritans and Essene, had their own "Oral Tradition".

    Also, I obviously agree with your assessment of where Paul was coming from vis-a-vis Jesus and the Law.


    BTW, I made an error in typing in my post 106, so I just corrected it, and you'll see the "NOT" highlighted in red:
     
  10. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    3,694
    Ratings:
    +1,497
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Thanks for the site. So in no way were the 613 in response to the why of the Exile and to avoid in the future.
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,997
    Ratings:
    +12,274
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Supposedly not. My only hesitation is that the books of Torah have a much latter writing date than what was originally believed, thus it may be possible that one or more could have been written, or partially written, after or around that date. I don't have the time to check on that at this time, but hopefully I can look it up tomorrow.

    Please respond to this post as a reminder for me to do my homework, OK?

    Take care.
     
  12. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    617
    Ratings:
    +61
    Religion:
    Gospel of the Kingdom
    The two who came from Judaea, of the southern half of the still-Divided Kingdom, were Judas and Saul of Tarsus. The word Jewish is actually Judaean.

    But Jesus says He came only unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel, which is what the northern half of the still-Divided Kingdom is called... due to their God-given possession of the land, the northern 10 tribes are Israel. And Judah's possession of the crown passed from the hands of mankind when Jesus was crowned King of the Judeans. They killed Him to steal His inheritance, so that Jesus tells us the vineyard was given to the nation which produces the fruits thereof. For saying that the marred pot of (northern) Israel is repurposed, Jeremiah was persecuted by the broken pot of Judah which will never be made whole.

    I don't need to find a new religion: I don't attempt to rewrite the Christianity which Jesus restored to His sheep when He spoke the Sermon on the Mount.


    Jesus does also make many warnings that you et al seem not to have noticed.
     
    #112 OtherSheep, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  13. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Pyrphóros ⚡ Lux Aeterna
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    28,420
    Ratings:
    +13,769
    Religion:
    Olympianism (Hellenic polytheism)
    This might as well be gibberish to me. Jesus was still a Jew, end of story.
     
  14. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    617
    Ratings:
    +61
    Religion:
    Gospel of the Kingdom
    The Truth doesn't require legislation.
     
  15. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    617
    Ratings:
    +61
    Religion:
    Gospel of the Kingdom
    Try reading the whole book of Matthew and the whole book of John.

    "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses's seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do" (Matthew 23:2-3).

    Matt.23, The Context:

    23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!"

    (because)
    23:13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
    (Matt.27:25 Then answered all the people...)

    23:33-35 "Serpents, generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (See Matt.21)

    Matt.5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    It's up to you whom ye will follow.
     
    #115 OtherSheep, Sep 8, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  16. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep <--- Bethulah

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    617
    Ratings:
    +61
    Religion:
    Gospel of the Kingdom
    “Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an Ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew.” (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3).

    Joh.8:58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
     
Loading...