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The Identity of the Two Witnesses of Revelation

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by christiang, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. christiang

    christiang Member

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  2. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you're really into this full tilt. I think that's great! Is this a paper for college?
     
  3. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Your blog is awesome. Totally.
     
  4. christiang

    christiang Member

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    :)
     
  5. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    I will have to check out your blog tomorrow. Too hard to manage on a cell phone. But as to your question. I've heard from some that they are Moses and Elijah, or Elijah and Enoch.
     
  6. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    I might as well post here a Baha'i view on who the two witnesses were...

    "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth."[1] These two witnesses are Muhammad the Messenger of God, and Ali, son of Abu Talib.
    [1 Rev. 11:3.]

    In the Qur'án it is said that God addressed Muhammad, the Messenger of God, saying: "We made You a Witness, a Herald of good news, and a Warner" -- that is to say, We have established Thee as the witness, the giver of good tidings, and as One bringing the wrath of God.[1] The meaning of "a witness" is one by whose testimony things may be verified. The commands of these two witnesses were to be performed for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day signifying a year. Now, Muhammad was the root, and Ali the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they "are clothed in sackcloth," meaning that they, apparently, were to be clothed in old raiment, not in new raiment; in other words, in the beginning they would possess no splendor in the eyes of the people, nor would their Cause appear new; for Muhammad's spiritual Law corresponds to that of Christ in the Gospel, and most of His laws relating to material things correspond to those of the Pentateuch. This is the meaning of the old raiment.

    ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 48
     
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  7. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I tend to go with Elijah and Enoch since they never died.
     
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  8. christiang

    christiang Member

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    Why would Enoch come down from heaven, to be killed, and then resurrected a few days later? These two prophets are clearly from among men living on earth. You guys need to learn to think things through, the word of God is also logical.
     
  9. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Yeah. Makes sense. I lean that way myself. Keeping in mind that God can bring along anyone He wants.
     
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  10. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Based upon some of your beliefs, as articulated in other posts, I think you may less than enthusiastic about some of the OP's positions after you read some of the other blogs on his site.
     
  11. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I just read and commented on that one blog. I doubt I believe exactly as any other person on Earth. A blog can also be awesome if I don't agree with everything it says.
     
  12. Dantedeven

    Dantedeven Member

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    Enoch is a witness, for Enoch lived sixty five years and met Methulasach. And after he met Methulasach, Enoch walked with God, threehundred years, and got sons and daughters. And thus Enochs days counted threehundred and sixty five years. And then Enoch walked with God again, thus he was not here anymore, because God took Enoch with Him. (Never died)

    Genesis 5:21-27
     
  13. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    I don't agree with any of you. Revelation is figurative for the most part. We have to understand what the symbolism denotes. Two witnesses was the minimum number of witnesses required under the Old Testament law to convict a person of a crime warranting the death sentence.

    Detut 17;6 "At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death."

    Deut 19;5 "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

    I posit that "the two witnesses" denotes a small bible believing church that continues to witness to the truth sufficient to impute the guilt of sin to the rest of the world.
     
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    The evidence that the Two Witnesses were Muhammad the Messenger of God, and Ali, son of Abu Talib is strong. History has shown the events that were foretold to happen, unfolded with the Revelation of Muhammad.

    Regards Tony
     
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  15. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    If we contrast the two witnesses of Rev 11;3, who prophesied a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth, with the woman who gave birth to a man-child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and who was caught up to God, and to his throne, in Rev 12;3-6, and who then fled to the desert for a thousand two hundred and threescore days, we find that the two witnesses are most likely the faithful of God and to God (the church of God) and who own Jesus as the Messiah, which Islam does not.

    Neither Muhammad nor Ali were ever clothed in sackcloth, neither did they flee to the desert for a thousand two hundred and threescore days, nor did they give birth to a man-child caught up to the throne of God.
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    This is the unfolding of Revelation 12 verses 3 to 6;

    "...Verses 3 and 4. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.” These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muḥammadan religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa—that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.
    Verse 4. “And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour the child as soon as it was born.” As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muḥammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muḥammad’s descendants who might be highly esteemed.
    Verse 5. “And she brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might—it is not a sword—and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb.
    Verse 5. “And her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.” This is a prophecy of the Báb, Who ascended to the heavenly realm, to the Throne of God, and to the center of His Kingdom. Consider how all this corresponds to what happened.
    Verse 6. “And the woman fled into the wilderness”—that is to say, the Law of God fled to the wilderness, meaning the vast desert of Ḥijáz, and the Arabian Peninsula....."

    1260 is reference to AH1260 years and this was AD1844 when the Bab gave His Message. Thus the Faith of Muhammad lasted 1260 years, as foretold by Revelation and Daniel.

    This is the full explanation of Chapter 12 - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    Oh yes. And why should John The Apostle write a prophecy about Islam and the fratricidal quarrels of the Arabs when it is Christ who is described in Revelation as the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end?

    Sounds like you espouse of version of religion that paints the Arabs in a similar vein to how Hitler painted the Aryans?

    Rev. 22;12. "12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    Sorry. Revelation is about Jesus Christ not the Arabs.
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    It is indeed about 'Christ' and therein lays the answer to how the First and Last, the Alpha and Omega is Manifested by God.

    Christ tanslated being 'Anointed One'. Jesus Annointed of the Holy Spirit.

    The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

    Thus Muhammad was needed and foretold in the Bible. Muhammad also Annointed of the same Holy Spirit, corrected the False Doctrine that has arisen in the Teachings of Jesus the Christ. That Doctine called Trinity, which now prevents Christains accepting the Return of Christ in the Glory of God, the Father.

    Regards Tony
     
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  19. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

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    Unfortunately Mahomet does not disclose the true doctrine because he does not even acknowledge Jesus as the son of God. In Christian terms Mahomet would be "antichrist" and nothing less (cf. 1st epistle of John - one who denies that the son has come in the flesh).

    The doctrine called trinity is not even found in the bible so why would a prophet be required to correct it? Ok there is one notorious interpolated passage that appears to defer to something like a Trinity but it is acknowledged to be an interpolation now. Heresies there have always been and always will be. One can't have a new prophet for every heresy. In any case there is a trinity of revelation, the name of the "Father son and holy spirit" and into which Christians are baptized. The issue with the Trinity is principally those who insist on referring to "God the son" and "God the Holy Spirit" and which are completely meaningless. Such terms are not found in the bible, although those who have refused to accept them have been viciously persecuted by orthodoxy. A "son" is an heir, but Jesus is not an heir as resurrected he has already received what was promised to him. God himself has given such churches over to wrath in the form of corrupt doctrine. Mahomet is not required, and do not Jews teach the same as Mahomet anyway in respect of the singularity of God? Yet in Rev 9 Islam is prophesied but only as a "persecution" on a wicked world. Islam is punishment, not prophecy.

    Quite independently of Islam, the Councils of Antioch also rejected the notion of the homoousios long before Mahomet and many others such as Servetus have rejected the Trinity as espoused by Orthodoxy and founded in Greek philosophy.

    So I regret I don't share your exegesis of Revelation.
     
    #19 outlawState, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    Muhammad has confirmed the virgin birth of Jesus in the Koran.

    Muhammad is also the First Woe of Revelation. The 2nd Woe being the Bab and the 3rd Woe that came quickly is Baha'u'llah.

    Regards Tony
     
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