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The Holy Bible Manifested

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by destinata7, May 8, 2004.

  1. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Lightkeeper,

    Jesus Christ made it clear that we have the Divine within us when He said, Know ye not that ye are gods?

    There is no question about the human race being special. The soul is one of the keys on this topic. Have you already discussed this somewhere else on this forum? I'll check it out if you have.


    Destinata7
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Yes, Lightkeeper, he was a deeply religious Pantheist with a remarkable mind. To get a some sense of what that might look like today, you might find The Sacred Depths of Nature inspiring.
     
  3. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    ohh... I have a question they got angry with...

    "if dogs dont go to heaven why is dog God spelled backward?"

    Is dog the anti-god?
    If creation is supposed to end when you say god backwards why can we say dog?

    wa:-do
     
  4. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Paintedwolf,

    According to my son, All Dogs Go To Heaven! (Maybe he's watching too much TV)

    If my son is right, it could help explain this whole dog-god thing.



    PS I assume you're just having fun. If you require a more serious response let me know.


    Destinata7
     
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    destinata7,

    Sorry it's taken me a couple of days to reply-- I was out of town for the weekend.

    Ah yes, but now we have science! Imagine what the world would be like if we thought about everything as we did 1000 years ago. Don't know about you, but I am getting some pretty scary images!

    The universe can only be judged on infinite scales. Point being, that it has been around for an infinite amount of time, stretches on for infinity, etc. As far as your 'cards analogy' goes, you are correct in thinking that it would be nearly imposible to obtain such an outcome-- if you are restricting the concept to the human levels of time and space, that is. For instance, if the deck of cards were being thrown up an infinite number of times, sooner or later, you might just get it right. The beauty about our world though, is that atoms and matter act in much more logical and patterned ways than a bunch of flying cards, therefore lowering the odds even more.

    Well, why not? do you reject the idea of it being a coincidence because you have evidence to back up the alternative, or do you reject it simply because it seems too 'far out' to you? How, exactly, do we know that it's such a big coincidence in the first place? There could be countless other successfully lifebearing planets out in the universe right now. And not even that: what about all of the others that could have existed before ours? For all we know, the 'big bang' could be a jolly common occurence.

    Speaking of which...

    I love answering this one!

    1) You can accept that god was always 'just there', and that he is the one who created all, but you cannot accept that perhaps matter and atoms, etc. could have always just been there. That seems like selective acceptence to me.

    2) This is certainly more complicated, and scientists have a couple of theories, but the one I like the best (because at this point, it holds the most water) is the one that deals with quantum events. I don't know a whole lot about these, but the basic premise is that quantum events are sporadic occurances which happen in the universe. We can even witness them today-- black holes are created by them. They are controlled by irrational quarks (smaller than the atom)...or at least, we think they are irrational. More than likely, quarks are logical and patterned like evrything else in the universe-- they simply run on a longer pattern than other things. For instance, a pattern of 'every billion years' vs. a pattern of 'every spring'. This would explain why we can find no rationality in them, because the entire pattern cannot be completed during the relatively short lifespan of a planet.

    And I think it would be impossible to prove that god does exist. You see, in science, the lack of evidence for something warrants a lack of existence. I can't start going around saying I believe in unicorns just because there is no evidence against them, I think we would agree that that would be a little ridiculous.
     
  6. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Ceridwen,

    Your points are excellent! I think we're going to have some great discussions. I'm having a busy day at work today so I'll have to give you my responses a little later. Don't go away though.....I will be back!




    Destinata7
     
  7. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Ceridwen,

    I like your style and your attitude. At least when you don't agree you have a proposition for how and why we don't agree. That makes for excellent conversation...and I appreciate it.

    I think what we could do to narrow our points and concepts, thus bringing them closer in relevance, is to broaden our definition. I use the term God; you use substances of nature. Let's call the two of these for now:

    Not God
    Not substance
    But energy


    Now we suddenly believe much closer because whether by divine unction or by quantum actions, there is a motivating force. Star Wars, of course, personifies this "force" as being some kind of universal intelligence or consciousness.

    Quite often people are separated by definition. Here is a scripture that I believe would be well worth your time to read and ponder: Psalms 19.1-6

    Please let me know what you think of this scripture and we will chat again.


    Respectfully,

    Destinata7
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    There is nothing about energy that implies motivating force. Quantum mechanics is not teleological.
     
  9. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    destinata7,

    Alright, energy it is!

    Psalm 19: 1-6

    1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they display knowledge.
    3 There is no speech or language
    where their voice is not heard.
    4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.
    In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,
    5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
    like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
    6 It rises at one end of the heavens
    and makes its circuit to the other;
    nothing is hidden from its heat.


    This is very pretty, but I'm not sure of it's relevancy.

    By this passage, you are telling me that you see god in all of creation. Here again, I think we disagree only by way of semantics, for I would say that I see the workings of science in all of nature.

    Deut,

    I agree with you here, but in this sense, 'energy' is merely a word. destinata and I are simply pointing out that our two different explanations are actually quite similar as far as their basic concepts go.
     
  10. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    One of the definitions for motivating is “activating”. This is particularly the definition I have used for “motivating force”. I really don’t want to turn our exchange of ideas into a scientific dialogue. However, I will make a few points:

    1) You say nothing about energy implies motivating force and that quantum mechanics is not teleological, but what about consciousness affecting the quantum wave in the sense of the quantum mechanics of atoms in the brain?

    Also, please keep in mind the term “energy” is quite a versatile term and can apply to mechanical, molecular, chemical, electrical, atomic and etc. kinds of energy. The term “energy” can also related to the term “potential”.

    2) What about the entanglement theory of the electron? Such an operation would regard influence.

    3) Even as in fullerene isomerization, cluster growth is considered to proceed via a self assembly process. Can this not be said to be a motivating energy force of nature?

    There are many synchronistic potentials that could be applied as a conceptual substance for the motivation of energy force applications. Just as the (abstract) helical motion of atomic nuclei can cause a coherent multibody vacuum polarization in zero-point energy (outstanding to the conservation of energy).

    Who is to say what deep unfolds yet to be revealed for allowing such coherent actions will bring in the process of insight, especially as to the discovery of telethesian mind abilities? I, of course, believe these qualities are imbued into the universe by God the I-AM.

    Destinata7
     
  11. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Ceridwen, many people mistake this scripture in Psalms to be purely poetic and miss another aspect of it altogether. You are on the right track when you say it talks about "god( I really like to capitalize this) in all of creation".

    I would like to point out in particular one verse in this scripture:

    4 Their voice(KJV uses line here) goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.


    This passage also appears in the New Testament:

    Romans 10:18
    But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


    These scriptures are talking about the "voice", "sound", or "line" of God that went out to the ends of the world. This is the will(s) of God imprinted into all existence and we refer to this as the "Soundline" or better yet, the "Soundtron". "Tron" is from the NT Greek word Metron which means "to measure".

    The Soundtron is a revelation that opens many doors as far as explaining the way that God works in the universe.


    I don't want to make this post any longer, let me know if this sparks any questions for further discussion.
     
  12. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    destinata7,

    Is your 'soundtron' my science, perchance? I'm not sure how this explains how god works in the universe. Could you explain it a little more?
     
  13. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Absolutely. Running out of time today though. I'll get you more tomorrow.
     
  14. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    As we discussed,

    In Psalms 19:4 it says that their line[qav] went out through all the earth.

    In Romans 10:18 this scripture is reiterated, but the Hebrew word for line is replaced by the Greek word [pythoggos] sound.

    The Hebrew word for line means 'measuring device' and 'cord; musical string or line'.

    Paul in another verse in the same letter [Romans 12:3] ties "measure" [metron] to "faith".

    Romans 12:3
    For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    The term measure has many synonyms, a few being:

    design, pattern, plans, blueprint, layout, extent, capacity, division,
    magnitude, portion, part.


    The writer of Hebrews ties together all of these components in
    Hebrews 11:3, stating the construction of the cosmos occurs via the unseen substance of faith [measured sound].

    Hebrews 11:1-3
    1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


    As in Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 10:18, the "setting" (or making, placing, appointing) of a "tabernacle (tent;i.e., fig. 'cosmos') for the sun" is also the context in Hebrews 11:1-3 wherein the "framing" or construction of the cosmos occurs via an unseen "substance" of "measured sound".......the Soundtron.


    Let's talk about this before I post anymore on this subject.

    Respectfully,
     
  15. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Destinata7,

    Ok, the thing that I have a problem with here, is that 'faith' is your only evidence. Faith is a totally intangible thing. It is a state of mind. How can you be so sure that your state of mind is correct?
     
  16. Mr Spinkles

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    oops...i triple posted on accident!
     
  17. Mr Spinkles

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    destinata-- the Big Bang may very well have been caused by things (i.e. string theory) but this (or any other) scientific explaination is not really the God that most theists worship. Your argument could also be used to convince ancient Romans that Zeus must exist, since we did not know what elements in nature caused lightning at that time. What your argument seems to come down to is to prove the existence of God by equating God to the laws of nature themselves....and in that case, you only disagree with atheists in terms of symantics.

    A point about the Big Bang-- this theory does not argue that 'something came from nothing' because there is no such thing as a universe before the Big Bang. Time is a relative concept that does not exist without matter moving in relation to other matter, therefore the time that elapsed in any theoretical universe 'before' the Big Bang is literally 0 seconds.

    So the Big Bang did not come from nothing, because that theoretical nothingness lasted for 0 seconds and therefore never existed. I hope this clears things up a bit.
     
  18. Mr Spinkles

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  19. posit

    posit New Member

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    Nope. Are you for or against the Big Bang theory?
     
  20. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

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    Mr. Spinkles:

    Often in the course of church history Christians have felt to deny, repel and to hush discoveries of science that were thought to challenge their sacred views. I could name a good size number of such refutations but I don’t think I need go there to answer your statement.

    First to set the record straight as to our belief and commitment:

    1. We believe Jesus Christ is the Lord and Father.

    2. We do not believe that God is the nature or elements of the universe in action. We believe that God has personifications and His Spirit penetrates all creation.


    True, some statements of our viewpoints could be used to support views of religious or mythical concepts other than Christianity. However, the full perspective of our insight presents a more focused and concentrated point of God’s creation plan.

    This focused view opens the heavens and unfurls the knotty enigmas wherein many Christians have been bound to miracle concepts only. Of course God is a God of miracles, but God works and lives in both the great and small creations and functions of this universe (see Psalms 29:2-10).

    As regards the so called “Big Bang”, the Bible tells us the heavens will be rolled together as a scroll ( Is. 34:4) This is how this universe will end and how all universe worlds have ended. After perpetuations of timelessness God stretches out the scroll of the densified heavens of the universe and time begins again ( see Isa. 42:5-45:12, 51:15 and Ps. 104:2).
     
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