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The Head & The Heart

JesusBeliever

Active Member
I've been thinking about these 2 a lot lately.
Coz I've started noticing a real difference between them.
The thought just came to mind that my head can be a bit of a goat sometimes.
And I've noticed my heart doesn't like it.
Sometimes it feels like my heart literally drops inside me when my mind gets a bit ahead of itself.

I don't know where I'm going with this so feel free to share your thoughts or feelings!
And gently would be much appreciated.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
In early Buddhism, we perceive the "consciousness" and the "mind". The consciousness is higher than the mind, and the mind is often drawn away by it's own thoughts, etc., which the consciousness opposes.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Zen monkey mind. :D

Have you tried koan work? You can probably approach and contemplate the trinity in much the same way as one would approach and contemplate a koan. I like to start off with some dark chocolate, and then let the monkey mind (head) run with the koan, and with the "heart," observe monkey mind's antics. It can be joyful to observe monkey mind having fun, racing around, and playing with the koan. Eventually, monkey mind will tire out and rest. :)
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I feel like I notice a difference only because my culture has taught me that there is a difference. There are certainly more than two "voices" that speak to me, and were I to label them myself, I would not call them "heart" and "head." I think I would call them hats. There would be the Scientist hat, a Storyteller hat, a Witch hat, and lots of other hats. They don't have to all get along, nor should they; each brings a valued voice at the table, and actions that are opportune in different situations, yes?
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
I don't know where I'm going with this so feel free to share your thoughts or feelings!
And gently would be much appreciated.
Since you don’t know where you’re going with it, and I don’t know where you’re coming from, then I’m not sure this response will do, but I would like to offer it as something to think about because it might be of some value to you, later if not now. I learned it from a theology professor in a class at our parish that discussed the properties of the soul. It has helped me understand myself better and make better decisions, especially when it comes to doing the right thing and resisting temptation.

So anyway, the soul, or the person, if you prefer, is not just head (mind) and heart (emotions). There are three distinct components influencing our behavior, which were designed by God to work in proper balance with each other. They don’t always do that in our fallen nature, but they can do it with a little effort and our Lord’s grace.

The components are (from bottom to top, as in lower to higher self):

Desire (can also be called the emotions or affects, meaning to have or demonstrate a liking for something.) – We want food, money, a new car, love, sex. revenge, or whatever. Good or bad, there is always something we want.

Intellect – The intellect’s job as it relates to desire is to determine whether that thing we want is a good thing or a bad thing; good for us or not; good for us at this specific time or not, etc. The professor’s simple example involved having a piece of cake or two or three. I could say that the first piece would be good for me, but maybe not a second one immediately after that, and probably not a third. Everything God has made for us is good, but not necessarily good for us in whatever quantity we want or at any time we want it or under just any circumstance. Wine is good, but getting drunk is not. Marital relations are good, but adultery and fornication are not. The conscience is part of the intellect, and tells us what is right and what is wrong, even if we don’t want to hear it. The intellect can function as God intended, or it can function as Satan temps it to, such as to bypass the conscience by justifying what we know is wrong or excusing ourselves from doing what we know is right.

Will – The will is the boss, or is supposed to be. This is where decisions are to be made, whether they satisfy the desire or not. The will is guided by the intellect and has authority and power over what we do or don’t do. Turning away from a habitual sin is an act of the will. Forgiveness is an act of the will, as is praying for the welfare and salvation of our enemies. Willful acts of selfless love or charity/agape are pleasing to God even when they don’t correspond with the emotions because the will can remain good and constant even as emotions change or become uncontrollable. The ultimate function of the will is to align with God’s will. And when that happens, desire, intellect, and will are in the most perfect harmony with each other.

When I first learned about these things, I didn’t see any great significance in them, but the more I thought about it, the more I saw how their imbalance in my own life had resulted in long-term patterns of flawed thinking, bad habits, self-destructive behavior, impurity, and sin. I was amazed by the results of just asking Jesus for his help and then exercising the power of my own will to overcome constant temptations. Everything about it has been easier than I thought it would be.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Just wanna thank everyone for sharing coz I was a bit nervous starting this thread and it was actually heart-warming to come back and see some replies. I might be judged for saying this but I actually got a little from each post.

In early Buddhism, we perceive the "consciousness" and the "mind". The consciousness is higher than the mind, and the mind is often drawn away by it's own thoughts, etc., which the consciousness opposes.
Hi Buddhist, it sounds like you're describing my day today. It literally felt like there was a battle over the control of my mind. :confused::mad::eek:o_O:coldsweat::sob:

Eventually, monkey mind will tire out and rest. :)
Hi crossfire, you're right it did! :sleeping:

I feel like I notice a difference only because my culture has taught me that there is a difference. There are certainly more than two "voices" that speak to me, and were I to label them myself, I would not call them "heart" and "head." I think I would call them hats. There would be the Scientist hat, a Storyteller hat, a Witch hat, and lots of other hats. They don't have to all get along, nor should they; each brings a valued voice at the table, and actions that are opportune in different situations, yes?
Hi Quintessence, I have felt encouraged to be honest and say I hear lots of voices too, and that's putting it mildly. Sometimes it feels like I'm in a crowded room of people shouting and yelling and crying and screaming at me, and then like crossfire said, my mind tires and it rests. All is quiet.

Since you don’t know where you’re going with it, and I don’t know where you’re coming from, then I’m not sure this response will do, but I would like to offer it as something to think about because it might be of some value to you, later if not now. I learned it from a theology professor in a class at our parish that discussed the properties of the soul. It has helped me understand myself better and make better decisions, especially when it comes to doing the right thing and resisting temptation.

So anyway, the soul, or the person, if you prefer, is not just head (mind) and heart (emotions). There are three distinct components influencing our behavior, which were designed by God to work in proper balance with each other. They don’t always do that in our fallen nature, but they can do it with a little effort and our Lord’s grace.

The components are (from bottom to top, as in lower to higher self):

Desire (can also be called the emotions or affects, meaning to have or demonstrate a liking for something.) – We want food, money, a new car, love, sex. revenge, or whatever. Good or bad, there is always something we want.

Intellect – The intellect’s job as it relates to desire is to determine whether that thing we want is a good thing or a bad thing; good for us or not; good for us at this specific time or not, etc. The professor’s simple example involved having a piece of cake or two or three. I could say that the first piece would be good for me, but maybe not a second one immediately after that, and probably not a third. Everything God has made for us is good, but not necessarily good for us in whatever quantity we want or at any time we want it or under just any circumstance. Wine is good, but getting drunk is not. Marital relations are good, but adultery and fornication are not. The conscience is part of the intellect, and tells us what is right and what is wrong, even if we don’t want to hear it. The intellect can function as God intended, or it can function as Satan temps it to, such as to bypass the conscience by justifying what we know is wrong or excusing ourselves from doing what we know is right.

Will – The will is the boss, or is supposed to be. This is where decisions are to be made, whether they satisfy the desire or not. The will is guided by the intellect and has authority and power over what we do or don’t do. Turning away from a habitual sin is an act of the will. Forgiveness is an act of the will, as is praying for the welfare and salvation of our enemies. Willful acts of selfless love or charity/agape are pleasing to God even when they don’t correspond with the emotions because the will can remain good and constant even as emotions change or become uncontrollable. The ultimate function of the will is to align with God’s will. And when that happens, desire, intellect, and will are in the most perfect harmony with each other.

When I first learned about these things, I didn’t see any great significance in them, but the more I thought about it, the more I saw how their imbalance in my own life had resulted in long-term patterns of flawed thinking, bad habits, self-destructive behavior, impurity, and sin. I was amazed by the results of just asking Jesus for his help and then exercising the power of my own will to overcome constant temptations. Everything about it has been easier than I thought it would be.
Hi Forever Catholic, thanks for having the courage to share. You seemed a little hesitant at first so just want you to know you're post really did help me identify different parts of myself today. All 3 were present today, and most notably out of the 3 was the will to align with God's will. Felt like I was facing the battle of my life today and thankfully despite the extreme torment in my mind and the weakness of my will, I felt like God was pulling me through. I needed help from my mum who quoted Scriptures to me when she recognised I was listening to lies. The lies that she had learned many years ago to identify with me often started with, "But mum, what if this happens or what if I make a mistake or what if they see me like this, they might take me away?"

I know this is heavy and I feel a bit embarrassed but a verse (bolded and underlined below) encourages me to share anyway:

""Is it a fast like this which I choose, a day for a man to humble himself? Is it for bowing one's head like a reed And for spreading out sackcloth and ashes as a bed? Will you call this a fast, even an acceptable day to the LORD? "Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke? "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry And bring the homeless poor into the house; When you see the naked, to cover him; And not to hide yourself from your own flesh? "Then your light will break out like the dawn, And your recovery will speedily spring forth; And your righteousness will go before you; The glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. "Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; You will cry, and He will say, 'Here I am.' If you remove the yoke from your midst, The pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness, And if you give yourself to the hungry And satisfy the desire of the afflicted, Then your light will rise in darkness And your gloom will become like midday. "And the LORD will continually guide you, And satisfy your desire in scorched places, And give strength to your bones; And you will be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail. "Those from among you will rebuild the ancient ruins; You will raise up the age-old foundations; And you will be called the repairer of the breach, The restorer of the streets in which to dwell. "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."" Isaiah 58:5-14

I'm nervous to push the post button but I'm going to anyway ok? :facepalm:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The OP reminds me of what a priest aty my wife's church said about this: "Joe missed going to heaven by just 18 inches-- the distance from his head to his heart".
 

Forever_Catholic

Active Member
JesusBeliever, thanks for the feedback and kind words. I think that passage from Isaiah is a perfect fit for this thread. It's excellent from the point of view where I have been, and evidently from where you have been, since you included it. The part that jumps out most at me personally is this:

"If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

And especially as it applies to me, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure. I'm past the worst of it (I hope), but still have a ways to go.

Whatever your battles and struggles have been or will be, trust in Jesus and his peace will be with you. Meanwhile, my prayers will be with you also.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
The OP reminds me of what a priest aty my wife's church said about this: "Joe missed going to heaven by just 18 inches-- the distance from his head to his heart".
Hi Metis, I don't think I'll ever forget this. Coz after today I absolutely believe it! It's hard to find the courage to trust it, in a world where the head rules supreme. The head constantly tries to take over and say I know what's best, let me handle it. But I had been there before and I ended up in a Psych Ward. This time I literally had to trust my loved ones in the Lord, and ask them to decide what was best for me. Thankfully we had my mum to take us on a journey and show us what simple faith in the Lord looks like. In an amazing way I feel like you all came on the journey with us because tonight while sharing this thread with my mum and telling her about your post, she got excited and said, "There's a song about that!" Which feels fitting to share with you all now.

 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hi Metis, I don't think I'll ever forget this. Coz after today I absolutely believe it! It's hard to find the courage to trust it, in a world where the head rules supreme. The head constantly tries to take over and say I know what's best, let me handle it. But I had been there before and I ended up in a Psych Ward. This time I literally had to trust my loved ones in the Lord, and ask them to decide what was best for me. Thankfully we had my mum to take us on a journey and show us what simple faith in the Lord looks like. In an amazing way I feel like you all came on the journey with us because tonight while sharing this thread with my mum and telling her about your post, she got excited and said, "There's a song about that!" Which feels fitting to share with you all now.

Thanks as that was very touching.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
JesusBeliever, thanks for the feedback and kind words. I think that passage from Isaiah is a perfect fit for this thread. It's excellent from the point of view where I have been, and evidently from where you have been, since you included it. The part that jumps out most at me personally is this:

"If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

And especially as it applies to me, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure. I'm past the worst of it (I hope), but still have a ways to go.

Whatever your battles and struggles have been or will be, trust in Jesus and his peace will be with you. Meanwhile, my prayers will be with you also.
Thanks so much for your prayers and pointing this particular section out at this time and on this day, coz after having had what felt like a Sabbath day today, I had been saying to the Lord that I was willing to give up my computer and stay off the internet if He wanted me to, and return to the simple faith I had when I first believed. So I came on here tonight with that question in mind, "Do you really want me on here or no?" And while I am so thankful for all the beautiful messages of support and prayer... I'm willing to give it all up for another day in the Lord, coz nothing I could ever envision for my day... It's just I came on here to try and help and found myself being helped. I suppose I will go where ever I feel led each day, and if it's on here, on here I'll be. :)

While writing this post my mum came to share another song with me, and it feels fitting to share it with yall too.
May we all find the courage to follow that still small voice that leads us to calmer waters.
With Love, thank you all!

 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Just wanna thank everyone for sharing coz I was a bit nervous starting this thread and it was actually heart-warming to come back and see some replies. I might be judged for saying this but I actually got a little from each post.

Hi Buddhist, it sounds like you're describing my day today. It literally felt like there was a battle over the control of my mind. :confused::mad::eek:o_O:coldsweat::sob:

Indeed ... in early Buddhism, we perceive the mind as an animal to be tamed by the higher consciousness, through the use of various methods; this taming is essential to further personal development beyond the level of the "ordinary adult".
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
"Early Buddhism" means the Buddhism taught in the early Pali Nikayas, so the term is not meaningless to me. ;)

There are different ways of approaching and interpreting the Nikayas, so which approach are you actually using? These different approaches are generally grouped under the general heading of Theravada, with the exception of Secular Buddhism.

Or do you mean just reading the Pali Canon and interpreting it in your own way?
 
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buddhist

Well-Known Member
There are different ways of approaching and interpreting the Nikayas, so which approach are you actually using? These different approaches are generally grouped under the general heading of Theravada, with the exception of Secular Buddhism.

Or do you mean just reading the Pali Canon and interpreting it in your own way?
The Pali Canon to me is a map pointing to the actual route (in Reality), and it's up to each individual to interpret the map for himself, and to find and walk the actual route through trial and error.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Everything that gets to the heart goes through the mind
so the book of Romans speaks of 'the renewal of the mind'

Heart is ultimately more important in what you treasure BUT
Head is primary in the sense of this first go through the head to get to the heart

You can't really separate the two
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Everything that gets to the heart goes through the mind
so the book of Romans speaks of 'the renewal of the mind'

Heart is ultimately more important in what you treasure BUT
Head is primary in the sense of this first go through the head to get to the heart

You can't really separate the two
There is some truth in what you say here, but the heart can also inform the mind and change how the mind thinks about it in the first place. The "renewal" of the mind, starts in the heart first. We have to first choose to be opened to listen with the heart first, then let the mind learn from it. Then as the mind has learned a new habitual way of thinking, what it tells the heart is consistent with it, reinforces it, and encourages the heart to continue expanding, which then renews and enlarges the mind's perceptivity, and so forth. The opposite can hold true as well, where if we hold fear in our hearts, the mind closes and trickles in dark thoughts to the heart which reinforces its isolation and fear, and so forth. Both need to be worked on of equal importance, but the priority is your will of what you choose to desire to be and become. The first priority is our intention of what we wish to live and be.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Both head and heart work together
In true worship the head understands something and the heart loves it

"Those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth" Jesus to the woman at the well in John 4
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
Both head and heart work together
In true worship the head understands something and the heart loves it

"Those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth" Jesus to the woman at the well in John 4
Hi whirlingmerc,

I don't think it's quite that simple and would go so far to say that I think the heart has an understanding all of it's own.
Take the woman at the well for example. She probably thought (in her mind) that her reply to Jesus was cleverly truthful when she said, "I have no husband!" So naturally the surprise to her heart when He said, "You've answered truthfully because you've had 5 husbands and the man you're now with is not your husband!" :flushed: The woman replied saying "Sir I perceive you're a prophet!" and she went on to ask Him which place was the right place to worship. Notice how He said to her "you worship what you do not know... and she went on to reveal that she was one of those waiting for the Christ. I think this was the moment her worship was revealed in Spirit and Truth:

"The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he." John 4:25-26

This was all He had to say to her before she took off to tell the people in her city that she had found the Christ:

"Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?" John 4:29
 
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