The Hamas Argument

[xkatz]

You don't give it to Hamas; you give it to the Palestinian people.

How is that done? Again you seem to be assuming that either Palestine is or will automatically become a westernized liberal democracy once it's given autonomy or Hamas will for some reason step-down. Am I wrong?

As the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states, everyone has the right to a nationality. This means that there are only two possibilites that do not deny fundamental human rights:

- recognize the Palestinians as Israeli nationals and grant them all the rights that go along with this, including full Israeli citizenship, the right to free movement within Israel, and the right to vote in Israeli elections.

- recognize full Palestinian statehood and treat the Palestinian territory as its own independent, sovereign nation.

Which would you prefer?

As I've clearly stated a dozen or so times already on this forum, the latter. I've never denied such. But that doesn't mean that statehood should be given without important logistical issues figured out. That would be irresponsible and dangerous for both parties.

 

[Mycroft]

You have shown that you are totally irrelevant to any serious conversation dealing with this topic.

Yes of course. That's how a conditioned brain full of propaganda is supposed to work.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How is that done? Again you seem to be assuming that either Palestine is or will automatically become a westernized liberal democracy once it's given autonomy or Hamas will for some reason step-down. Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong. A person is entitled to fundamental human rights regardless of whether they live in a "westernized liberal democracy".

As I've clearly stated a dozen or so times already on this forum, the latter. I've never denied such. But that doesn't mean that statehood should be given without important logistical issues figured out. That would be irresponsible and dangerous for both parties.

Then figure it out quick. Palestinians are entitled to a nationality just like everyone else, and until such time as they have a Palestinian state, the only nationality available to them is Israeli.

 

[metis]

I have long been in favor of a Palestinian state but that was not possible with both the PLO and Hamas using both suicide bombers and missiles in order to destroy Israel. However, there has been a change with Abbas' PLO, and even though they haven't outwardly condemned Hamas, it's become quite clear that they would much rather seek a diplomatic solution. Right now, the main obstacle is Hamas, but I have a feeling that Hamas in the long run has weaken its position as undoubtedly most Palestinians want this craziness and bloodshed to end.

 

[Mycroft]

What's to stop a Palestinian state from getting backing from Iran, Hezbollah, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, ISIS, etc? I doubt sanctions would mean much in such a scenario.

Absolutely nothing at all. But that's a risk Israel must be willing to take. I don't believe that they will, though. I believe that once Israel frees palestine, they might actually actively work with you to kick Hamas out, since I believe they'll be grateful enough for their freedom to avoid inviting the consequences of continuing to entertain Hamas or inviting eople like ISIS into the fold. I believe that they've longed for independence so much that they'll value it enough to remain so.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would suggest that any government that intentionally takes actions that knowingly would put their own people in serious jeopardy is morally repugnant.

No argument from me here, although the boundaries may be tricky to define. Keeping a military force at all may well qualify, for instance.

Hamas well knew what it was doing and had an estimated 10,000 missiles and rockets. Before even the Jewish students were murdered, which Hamas has finally admitted it planned, they launched 705 missiles and rockets against civilian targets in Israel.

Ok.

No country, including yours, would ever allow itself to be attacked without response.

That is true, but it would seem that you failed to understand my argument. You are not attempting to refute it. I do not necessarily approve of the actions of any country, much less "mine".

And for Hamas to knowingly bait Israel to respond to their attacks, well knowing what Israel would have to do, is morally repugnant.

For both sides. And all the more so for Israel if it does indeed claim that it "has" to use lethal force. It makes me sick to even imagine it.

Israel did what it had to do in order to defend itself.

So it claims. That in no way, shape or form excuses them for being what they actually are - and what they are is certain to make Israel a target for ever increasing and more desperate violence.

That is not only inexcusable. It is also exceedingly dumb and self-harming.

War is terrible as most of us agree, but Israel didn't start it, nor could they just ignore these hundreds of attacks on their own civilian population.

I. Do. Not. Care.

I do not want to me mistaken for the kind of person that would care.

And neither should you - or anyone, I think.

 

[xkatz]

Absolutely nothing at all. But that's a risk Israel must be willing to take. I don't believe that they will, though. I believe that once Israel frees palestine, they might actually actively work with you to kick Hamas out, since I believe they'll be grateful enough for their freedom to avoid inviting the consequences of continuing to entertain Hamas or inviting people like ISIS into the fold. I believe that they've longed for independence so much that they'll value it enough to remain so.

Some expert speculation right here...

[/sarcasm]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In my opinion, allowing a militarized Hamas -- or perhaps even Hamas in any form -- to be part of a Palestinian state would do little or nothing to change the current conflict because Hamas' Charter seeks the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. To ask the Israelis to accept that amounts to asking them to accept a continuation of the conflict under the guise of pursuing peace. Of course, we humans love our guises, we love to be fooled, and we will pay more money to be fooled than we will to be told the truth.

The Westminster Confession of Faith - effectively, the Charter of the Church of England - declares the Pope to be the Antichrist. This didn't stop the head of the Church (the Queen) from having friendly meetings with several different Popes or visiting the Vatican. Sometimes written charters aren't the be-all and end-all of a group's ethos.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would suggest that any government that intentionally takes actions that knowingly would put their own people in serious jeopardy is morally repugnant. Hamas well knew what it was doing and had an estimated 10,000 missiles and rockets. Before even the Jewish students were murdered, which Hamas has finally admitted it planned, they launched 705 missiles and rockets against civilian targets in Israel.

No country, including yours, would ever allow itself to be attacked without response. And for Hamas to knowingly bait Israel to respond to their attacks, well knowing what Israel would have to do, is morally repugnant. Israel did what it had to do in order to defend itself. War is terrible as most of us agree, but Israel didn't start it, nor could they just ignore these hundreds of attacks on their own civilian population.

Since Gaza is not a separate state, the IDF attacks on Gaza are also attacks on the Israeli civilian population.

 

[metis]

So it claims. That in no way, shape or form excuses them for being what they actually are - and what they are is certain to make Israel a target for ever increasing and more desperate violence.

That is not only inexcusable. It is also exceedingly dumb and self-harming.

I would suggest that your certainty may well prove out to be in error. At this point it's too hard to say how all of this will pan out. Therefore, your comment of "dumb and self-harming" is quite conjectural.

I. Do. Not. Care.

I do not want to me mistaken for the kind of person that would care.

And neither should you - or anyone, I think.

But some of us do care about the plight of the innocent, whether they be Israelis, Palestinians, or whatever. What good would it do if we all took the "I Do Not Care" attitude when dealing with helping or protecting the innocent? If you truly don't care, then why are you even posting on the subject?

I do care, and it's not just for Israelis as I have repeatedly made clear. The main obstacle to peace there is Hamas, and Hamas has done terrible harm to Palestinians. Over the last couple of days we've found out that they've arrested and executed scores of "Israeli sympathizers" without trial. Where's your criticism of that?

 

[metis]

Since Gaza is not a separate state, the IDF attacks on Gaza are also attacks on the Israeli civilian population.

Neither the WB nor the GS are legally part of Israel as they have a separate status.

 

[xkatz]

Yes, you're wrong. A person is entitled to fundamental human rights regardless of whether they live in a "westernized liberal democracy".

A fair point to make. But again, how do you give the general Palestinian populace what they want without also giving it to Hamas in particular?

Then figure it out quick.

I hope so.

 

[Sunstone]

The Westminster Confession of Faith - effectively, the Charter of the Church of England - declares the Pope to be the Antichrist. This didn't stop the head of the Church (the Queen) from having friendly meetings with several different Popes or visiting the Vatican. Sometimes written charters aren't the be-all and end-all of a group's ethos.

What you describe took hundreds of years to bring about. Are you seriously suggesting that we wait hundreds of years for Hamas to come to its senses? And if you think it won't take that long, then please give your reasons why you believe it won't take that long. Why you believe Hamas is an exception.

Put differently, have you seen any indication that Hamas does not mean what it says? If so, please share it with us.

 

[metis]

Yes of course. That's how a conditioned brain full of propaganda is supposed to work.

Childish.

Enough.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Neither the WB nor the GS are legally part of Israel as they have a separate status.

So there's already Palestinian statehood? I thought you said that there wasn't.

 

[Sunstone]

I am not familiar with military protocol. But I would hazard to guess that in a situation where, perhaps, british or American troops were fired with a missile from the roof of a hospital, we would not retaliate by firing a missile at that populated hospital. We have military units such as Navy SEALS, Delta Force, the SAS who can quietly infiltrate the hospital and take out the baddies with no loss of civilian life.

Do you seriously think a US or UK unit under attack from a hospital would routinely wait for a special ops unit to arrive and then take out the enemy?

As for myself, I would hope that the units would respond without actually targeting civilians. But I don't think they'd wait under fire for a special ops unit to arrive and save their chestnuts.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Taking a neutral stance I observe the Hamas has left its humanity behind in favour of murderous anger. It is tragic that Islam has not helped it. Now it is an organization solely bent upon vengeance for deeds both real and imagined. A dying plant, the UN dug a trench around Gaza and poured water in the trench and fertilized the soil, but that plant still could not produce. That is how it looks.

 

[Flankerl]

So there's already Palestinian statehood? I thought you said that there wasn't.

The areas are not part of any legal state.

 

[Alceste]

That is a truly pathetic lie, and you should be ashamed of this. There are roughly 1 & 1/2 million Arabs, most of Palestinian descent, living in Israel proper, and do you see a line up of them leaving? They are represented in the Knesset and some serve in the IDF.

OTOH, Jews by law cannot live in either the WB or the GS. I've been to Muslem sites in Israel and also a joint Jewish-Palestinian kibbutz there, so for you to say that Israelis want to exterminate Palestinians is just so unbelievably pathetic. You either have literally no clue of life over there or you're just ignorant on the subject, nor do you seem to be interested in any kind of honest approach on this.

Of all the cognitive dissonance among Israel's cheerleaders abroad, the fantasy that Israelis are far more tolerant and reasonable than Palestinians is the most absurd and naive.

Inside Israel's Pro-War Nationalist Camp

 

[metis]

So there's already Palestinian statehood? I thought you said that there wasn't.

It has a special designation ("observer state status"), according to the U.N., and it does have its own sovereign governments.