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The Hamas Argument

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Again, the fear that the airstrikes which serve only to destroy the firing sites create in palestinians, is not Netanyahu's responsibility. His civilians come first.

, and risk of his own civilians lives (no matter how little), and risk of soldier lives, and damage to the city which means increased monetary expense.

Depend's whose life, and to who. My life surely isn't worth as much to you as your son's or wife's is. In fact, the lives of everyone on this board, all together, don't amount to the value of your kid's life, for you... right?
Wrong, actually.

I heard an interesting test to point to the most just arrangement for a situation: pick the one that you would choose if you didn't know ahead of time what position you would have.

So let's consider that: imagine that a flip of a coin will determine whether you're an Israeli civilian or a Palestinian civilian. Would you want Israel to be acting the way it is when there's a 50-50 chance that you'll end up in Gaza yourself?

Likewise, to Netanyahu, and I agree with him 100%, a risk to his civilians' lives is worth more than that of Palestinians.
But we're not talking about a simple balance of a Palestinian life vs. an Israeli life. We're talking about a very high cost in Palestinian life vs. a very low decrease (or even perhaps a net increase, all things considered) in risk for Israeli lives. How lopsided does that bargain have to be before it would be immoral for Netanyahu to take it?

Or in your mind, does any benefit for the Israeli people justify any number of Palestinian dead?

Well, had all this not happened, Israel wouldn't have figured the tunnels out. If that hadn't happened, can you guess how many Israelis would have been slaughtered? Netanyahu, I believe, made the best of a horrible situation, and lost dozens of his own soldiers in the process. So far, everyone has been quick to criticize, and no one has found a more reasonable solution than te one that has actually been applied.
AFAIK, the existence of the tunnels was known at least as far back as 2006.

You acknowledge the death of Israeli soldiers; even disregarding the Palestinian deaths, do you think this action has saved more Israelis than died in the course of carrying it out?
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
You talk about obligation; is the only relevant moral obligation to defend Israeli civilians? Are there no other moral obligations here?
No (to the 1st one). Hamas has the obligation to protect Palestinian civilians, which it fails to do it seems. Especially seeing it just beheaded 30 of them for speaking out against them. To a lesser extent the IDF does as well by warning innocent Palestinian civilians about impending operations.

Bonus question: is it even clear that Israel's actions will even help the goal of "defending your civilians"? War destabilizes; this instability will have long-term risks for the whole region, including Israel.
Yes b/c ending the current conflict (and disarming Hamas) will largely bring back said stability and normalcy. It's in both Israel's and the PA's interest to do so. Nobody wants an indefinite war, especially right now with what's happening just to the north.

Even if we completely ignore Gaza and focus completely on Israel, what reason do you have to think that the overall long-term consequences here wil be a net positive for Israel?
Yes b/c if Hamas is delegitimized (which it has become in the eyes of the Saudis and Egyptians, which helps) and is demilitarized, Israel will be more willing to go back to negotiate with Abu Mazen. Also, this conflict will IMO act as a deterrent for future conflict for both Israel and Palestinians alike.
 
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dantech

Well-Known Member
Wrong, actually.

I heard an interesting test to point to the most just arrangement for a situation: pick the one that you would choose if you didn't know ahead of time what position you would have.


So let's consider that: imagine that a flip of a coin will determine whether you're an Israeli civilian or a Palestinian civilian. Would you want Israel to be acting the way it is when there's a 50-50 chance that you'll end up in Gaza yourself?
This is not representative of the situation. Stop with the hypotheticals. Everyone is a bit selfish. If I was you, your kids would be worth more to me than my kids are. If you were me, the same would be said about my kids in regards to you.
Right now, as it stands, Israeli civilians are more important to Netanyahu than Palestinians. I'm not talking about being fair or just. In a time of war, the goal is not to be fair or just, it's to eliminate the enemy/threat while protecting your civilians.


But we're not talking about a simple balance of a Palestinian life vs. an Israeli life. We're talking about a very high cost in Palestinian life vs. a very low decrease (or even perhaps a net increase, all things considered) in risk for Israeli lives. How lopsided does that bargain have to be before it would be immoral for Netanyahu to take it?
The problem with your argument, is that you are assuming that Netanyahu thought to himself:
"They're attacking me today and there's a chance they might hit my civilians. I'm going to go kill 1000 civilians and take out those 10 Hamas soldiers that are hiding behind them."

That's not how it was happening. He was targeting Hamas. He was warning civilians to get the hell out of there. But his mission was to eliminate Hamas soldiers, their firing areas, and the tunnels - all in order to keep his own civilians safe. If 1 civilian or 500000 civilians died, but he completed his mission, then as sad as it is that all these civilians died, he completed his mission and kept his own safe, which the only reasonable thing a prime minister can do. Now if you had a different solution which you could explain that would effectively reduce the amount of casualties, then we could talk about how rotten Netanyahu's attack plan was. Until then, he did better than any other leader would do. As I said, how many wars have you seen or witnessed in which the enemies' civilians were warned before bombings?

Or in your mind, does any benefit for the Israeli people justify any number of Palestinian dead?
not at all, but security of my own life in a time of threat is definitely benefit enough.


AFAIK, the existence of the tunnels was known at least as far back as 2006.
speculation...

You acknowledge the death of Israeli soldiers; even disregarding the Palestinian deaths, do you think this action has saved more Israelis than died in the course of carrying it out?
I never once disregarded the Palestinian deaths. As for the following question, I didn't quite understand. If you're asking "did this operation save more Israelis than would have died on the long run had the operation not taken place?" My answer is yes. They were planning a big hit on the Jewish New Year that would have been very difficult to defend against.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is not representative of the situation. Stop with the hypotheticals.
In this case, it's a hypothetical that's illuminating. Try it out: if a coin flip was going to decide whether you lived next to a Hamas rocket site or within the area targetted by those Hamas rockets so that you didn't know which one you end up in, would you want the air strikes to happen or not?

Everyone is a bit selfish. If I was you, your kids would be worth more to me than my kids are. If you were me, the same would be said about my kids in regards to you.
Ethics is concerned with how people ought to behave, which isn't necessarily how they do behave.

Right now, as it stands, Israeli civilians are more important to Netanyahu than Palestinians. I'm not talking about being fair or just. In a time of war, the goal is not to be fair or just, it's to eliminate the enemy/threat while protecting your civilians.
So your answer is that the air strikes aren't ethical, but you don't care?

The problem with your argument, is that you are assuming that Netanyahu thought to himself:
"They're attacking me today and there's a chance they might hit my civilians. I'm going to go kill 1000 civilians and take out those 10 Hamas soldiers that are hiding behind them."
No, I'm not, actually.

That's not how it was happening. He was targeting Hamas. He was warning civilians to get the hell out of there. But his mission was to eliminate Hamas soldiers, their firing areas, and the tunnels - all in order to keep his own civilians safe. If 1 civilian or 500000 civilians died, but he completed his mission, then as sad as it is that all these civilians died, he completed his mission and kept his own safe, which the only reasonable thing a prime minister can do. Now if you had a different solution which you could explain that would effectively reduce the amount of casualties, then we could talk about how rotten Netanyahu's attack plan was. Until then, he did better than any other leader would do. As I said, how many wars have you seen or witnessed in which the enemies' civilians were warned before bombings?
I'm not sure how this changes the fact that he certainly had intelligence that many civilians hadn't left, for whatever reason.

not at all, but security of my own life in a time of threat is definitely benefit enough.
How much of a threat warrants killing someone, though? The risk from any organization is non-zero worldwide. Take the Air India bombings in 1985: one of the bombs killed baggage handlers in Japan. Or the 1979 Lillehammer affair: 4 innocent Norwegian bystanders were killed by a Mossad car bomb. Would it have been reasonable for Japan to launch military strikes against Sikh separatists or Norway to bomb Tel Aviv in response? I don't think it would be; do you? Even when there's a threat to your life, only a certain level of response is reasonable.


speculation...

I never once disregarded the Palestinian deaths. As for the following question, I didn't quite understand. If you're asking "did this operation save more Israelis than would have died on the long run had the operation not taken place?" My answer is yes. They were planning a big hit on the Jewish New Year that would have been very difficult to defend against.

I think you did disregard them: you explained in great detail about how they shouldn't matter to Israeli decision-making. This inherently devalues those lives.

But thank you for bringing up a possible attack. While I don't know enough about this to say how credible the threat was, if the Israeli actions in Gaza prevented a large attack, then this could be the first step in justifying those actions (the next step being to demonstrate that the Israeli actions were the best available way to achieve that end).
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
The latest in Gaza:


1865 killed: 429 are kids, 243 are women and 70 are elderly.

Almost 10,000 injuries: 2877 are kids, 1853 are women and 374 are elderly.

Some more on the human Crisis below:

Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza.

Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza | Palestine | Worldbulletin News

CITIZENS OF ISRAEL CHARGE ISRAEL WITH GENOCIDE

Citizens of Israel Charge Israel with Genocide | boycottisrael.info


How Much does Israel Cost the Average American?
How Much does Israel Cost the Average American? | Veterans Today

Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state

Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state

U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation

U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation | Democracy Now!

Jewish Voice for Peace Holds “Not in Our Name”

http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.c...-for-peace-holds-“not-in-our-name”-vigil.html

Gaza war prompts Latin America to break ties with Israel Novaes

Gaza war prompts Latin America to break ties with Israel - Channel 4 News

“Concentrate” and “exterminate”: Israel parliament deputy speaker’s Gaza genocide plan

â
€œConcentrate” and “exterminate”: Israel parliament deputy speaker's Gaza genocide plan | The Electronic Intifada



62% of British public says Israel committing war crimes

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...rimes-as-polls-show-sympathy-for-palestinians


Music Legend Brian Eno: Funding Israel Is Like ‘Sending Money To The KKK’
– Music Legend Brian Eno: Funding Israel Is Like ‘Sending Money To The KKK’

Why evangelicals should think twice about equating modern Israel with Israel of the Bible

Why evangelicals should think twice about equating modern Israel with Israel of the Bible | Ben Irwin

Video: If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you, says president of NY Board of Rabbis
Video: If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you, says president of NY Board of Rabbis | Mondoweiss


Four Children Killed In Attack On Gaza Beach Witnessed By Dozens Of
Journalists
http://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/four-children-killed-in-attack-on-gaza-beach-witnessed-by-do


Gaza's Christians and Muslims grow closer in defiance of Israeli attacks
Gaza's Christians and Muslims grow closer in defiance of Israeli attacks | Middle East Eye
Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes
Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes*|*Mehdi Hasan

#Jewish son of an israeli General comes out to speak the truth
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152155946701104
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There are such things as surgical strikes. There are people trained for such things. The human shield argument only becomes an argument if you bother to fire at said shield in the first place knowing full well that such a shield exists. Israel knows what its doing and its demonic.

Even surgical strikes are allowing too much aggression.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
The latest in Gaza:


1865 killed: 429 are kids, 243 are women and 70 are elderly.

Almost 10,000 injuries: 2877 are kids, 1853 are women and 374 are elderly.

Some more on the human Crisis below:

Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza.

Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza | Palestine | Worldbulletin News

CITIZENS OF ISRAEL CHARGE ISRAEL WITH GENOCIDE

Citizens of Israel Charge Israel with Genocide | boycottisrael.info


How Much does Israel Cost the Average American?
How Much does Israel Cost the Average American? | Veterans Today

Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state

Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state

U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation

U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation | Democracy Now!

Jewish Voice for Peace Holds “Not in Our Name”

http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.c...-for-peace-holds-“not-in-our-name”-vigil.html

Gaza war prompts Latin America to break ties with Israel Novaes

Gaza war prompts Latin America to break ties with Israel - Channel 4 News

“Concentrate” and “exterminate”: Israel parliament deputy speaker’s Gaza genocide plan

â
€œConcentrate” and “exterminate”: Israel parliament deputy speaker's Gaza genocide plan | The Electronic Intifada



62% of British public says Israel committing war crimes

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...rimes-as-polls-show-sympathy-for-palestinians


Music Legend Brian Eno: Funding Israel Is Like ‘Sending Money To The KKK’
– Music Legend Brian Eno: Funding Israel Is Like ‘Sending Money To The KKK’

Why evangelicals should think twice about equating modern Israel with Israel of the Bible

Why evangelicals should think twice about equating modern Israel with Israel of the Bible | Ben Irwin

Video: If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you, says president of NY Board of Rabbis
Video: If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you, says president of NY Board of Rabbis | Mondoweiss


Four Children Killed In Attack On Gaza Beach Witnessed By Dozens Of
Journalists
http://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/four-children-killed-in-attack-on-gaza-beach-witnessed-by-do


Gaza's Christians and Muslims grow closer in defiance of Israeli attacks
Gaza's Christians and Muslims grow closer in defiance of Israeli attacks | Middle East Eye
Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes
Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes*|*Mehdi Hasan

#Jewish son of an israeli General comes out to speak the truth
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152155946701104

That's an impressive little farm of propaganda, half-truths, and fringe nonsense you've got going there.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Do defenders of the Israel counter-offensive actually think it is in Israel's (or the Israelis') best interests?

Really, it would be more constructive to knee down and beg in humility for the Palestinians to pretty please swear to destroy Israel if that is the last thing they do in their lives.

If for no other reason, because the end result is no worse, and there is even a chance that they would feel manipulated enough to refuse.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Do defenders of the Israel counter-offensive actually think it is in Israel's (or the Israelis') best interests?

Really, it would be more constructive to knee down and beg in humility for the Palestinians to pretty please swear to destroy Israel if that is the last thing they do in their lives.

If for no other reason, because the end result is no worse, and there is even a chance that they would feel manipulated enough to refuse.

I do think it is in Israel's best interests. Terrorism cannot be tolerated, or incessant rocket attacks of any kind.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I do think it is in Israel's best interests. Terrorism cannot be tolerated, or incessant rocket attacks of any kind.

The biggest problem I see with this mindset is that it works just as well for the other side and ends up being self-perpetuating:

- We have to strike Gaza. We can't tolerate these Hamas rockets.
- We have to strike Israel. We can't tolerate these IDF air strikes.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
The biggest problem I see with this mindset is that it works just as well for the other side and ends up being self-perpetuating:

- We have to strike Gaza. We can't tolerate these Hamas rockets.
- We have to strike Israel. We can't tolerate these IDF air strikes.

When are you going to offer a humane solution to the problem?
 

farouk

Active Member
Peace to all
It all started with the kidnapping.Then Hamas was blamed.Then the rockets started and Hamas was blamed.Then the slaughter started and guess what Hamas was blamed.The aim of the murderous assault on the Gaza is not simply to prevent rockets from being fired into Israel or to destroy the network of tunnels or has any thing to do with the kidnappings.The attacks on homes,civilians, schools, hospitals,UN refugee camps and vital infrastructure are not mistakes but part of a calculated plan aimed at terrorising an entire population and breaking the 66-year history of Palestinian resistance to occupation.Detentions without trial, torture, targeted assassinations, collective punishment, indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas are the same atrocities that the Nazi’s carried out in occupied Europe during the 1930s and 1940s. The Zionist are resorting to such barbarism which basically testifies to the failure of the Zionist objective which justified in the establishment of the illegitimate state of Israel as a refuge for the Jewish population from Nazi horrors.
So when and how will all this barbarism end.For every one IDF member die they, the Zionist, slaughter a 100 innocent Palestinian.And for every Palestinian that die there are another 1000 that are born to avenge their deaths.
What we are seeing on this forum is the Israeli hasbara doing its utmost to justify its illuminati God.The bottom line is you will never smell peace in the middle east until all (Jews,Christians,muslims) learn to live together in tolerance and harmony.This land is Holy to all 3 religions and as such should be shared among all 3 religions.At the end of the day there is only one winner in this war and that is satan.
Peace
Farouk
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
That's a very easy thing to say, but not necessarily easy to do.

Correct. But then nothing about the military ever is easy. It still beats bombing innocent people, though. Y

How would you purpose a surgical strike be done when it's known that schools have weapon caches and your enemy is using tunnels and civilian infrastructure?

When the US Military captured Osama Bin Laden, after discovering that he was living in a house in a populated civilian neighbourhood in Pakistan, they took the decision to send in a small elite unit to capture him.

What they didn't do was bomb drop a bomb on the neighbourhood and claim Osama was using those people as human shields.

Your argument is invalid.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
In this case, it's a hypothetical that's illuminating. Try it out: if a coin flip was going to decide whether you lived next to a Hamas rocket site or within the area targetted by those Hamas rockets so that you didn't know which one you end up in, would you want the air strikes to happen or not?
If I'm being objective, and know that this air strike is necessary, then yes. I would approve it.


So your answer is that the air strikes aren't ethical, but you don't care?
yes, that's exactly what I said...



I'm not sure how this changes the fact that he certainly had intelligence that many civilians hadn't left, for whatever reason.
simple. What more could he do?


How much of a threat warrants killing someone, though? The risk from any organization is non-zero worldwide. Take the Air India bombings in 1985: one of the bombs killed baggage handlers in Japan. Or the 1979 Lillehammer affair: 4 innocent Norwegian bystanders were killed by a Mossad car bomb. Would it have been reasonable for Japan to launch military strikes against Sikh separatists or Norway to bomb Tel Aviv in response? I don't think it would be; do you? Even when there's a threat to your life, only a certain level of response is reasonable.
and what level would that be?




I think you did disregard them: you explained in great detail about how they shouldn't matter to Israeli decision-making. This inherently devalues those lives.
they should matter up to the extent that it endangers the lives of his civilians. I've said this multiple times already...

But thank you for bringing up a possible attack. While I don't know enough about this to say how credible the threat was, if the Israeli actions in Gaza prevented a large attack, then this could be the first step in justifying those actions (the next step being to demonstrate that the Israeli actions were the best available way to achieve that end).

I've been saying that they used the best means at their disposal. They couldn't, to my knowledge, do better.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The human shield thing is a transparently ludicrous excuse for the rather obvious fact Israel is targeting buildings in areas densely populated by civilians and doesn't give a fiddler's fart how many they kill.

Are you saying Israel is frequently targeting buildings from which rockets have not been launched? Wow, I'd appreciate a citation for that claim!
 
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