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Featured The Hadith, source of Islamic atrocities.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SA Huguenot, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Please sir, you are not being fair.

    First Islam has many versions.
    Second you are ignoring my point.
    Third you are misrepresenting Islam in total.
     
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  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I understand.

    From my perspective: If a person is advocating against rape, war, murder, and dominance; then, where ever they find support for their position is OK by me.
     
  3. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    If people can find meaning and useful advice in an old book - that's no problem. The problems start to crop up as soon as claims are made that some old book is "INFALLIBLE". That claim has led to a lot of bloodshed down through the centuries.
     
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  4. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    He's probably not even studied it ten minutes. This thread is :facepalm:
     
  5. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Islam is not a pacifist religion (much like Judaism), but nowhere does it condone killing civilians or suicide attacks (suicide is a major sin in Islam).
     
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  6. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    False.

    Also, the only people that take Kitab al-Bukhari with anything more than a grain of salt are Salafis (who are a modern invention).
    Before the past 100 or so years ago, Bukhari was never taken as a special collection.

    *criticize

    Aka, "I'm SA Huguenot and I'm exempt from criticism"
     
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  7. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    Somehow I think that's a bunch of bs. It was either fabricated or taken out of context. There's a rather famous hadith story about a prostitute that put her shoe in a well to give water to a thirsty dog and God forgave her sins for that act of kindness, but a woman who neglected her cat and they starved to death went to hell for it. The point is that is God wants kindness and mercy from his creations, which are a 180 from how you're trying to present things.
     
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  8. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    It was heard from SA Huguenot, who heard it from Muhammad, who said:
    "After I kill their husbands and sons I'll rape them in the name of God, won't you say?"
    - Kitab al-Protestantism, book 3, part 8, hadith 4. ​
     
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  9. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    Threads like these remind me why Protestant Christianity is such a mental illness
     
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  10. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    The same book urges people to pursue intelligence, wisdom, knowledge, virtue and condemns people for being stupid. It also claims that being a Muslim is not in the name but in the heart. The opening chapter states that some people will claim they are Muslims but will go straight to hell. Obviously it's not a one-dimensional text.

    As a Buddhist, I really find the Qur'an to be far more inspiring and challenging than the Bible (which is pathetic) or other scriptures. The Qur'an is very much like a Sutra, in a way.
     
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  11. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    For the sake of discussion, I'm happy to grant you that the book has some good advice.

    But once again, we're all told by Muslims that the book is INFALLIBLE. That it is PERFECT. That's the problem. If it's perfect, then that means the bad advice must also be perfect.
     
  12. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    It doesn't "have" it, it "Is" it.

    No, the book itself from the offset is a transmission, a direct revelation to Muhammad and the rest of humanity. This is what the book says about itself, not Muslims later on.
    I think you are uncomfortable with the idea of divine revelation, so be it, your tag says "anti-theist", so it doesn't surprise me that you'd be triggered by such a concept.

    In Buddhism we have concepts that have vague connections to such ideas (as revelations) but not on the grandiose universal scale as Islam. We believe there are other realms and intelligences out (or in) there we can connect with within the sphere of reality.
    I don't think there's anything even remotely bad about the Qur'an, in my own experience. As I said, it's far better than anything in the Bible, hands down. The Bible is disturbing and offensive.
    The only difference is Christians believe such things were "inspired", whereas Muslims have to deal with the intellectual science of Hadith analysis which is not a 'grab all' situation, it scrutinizes heavily. Most Muslims are aware that there are very revolting things in the Hadith, but they're not (except for Salafis) naive enough to accept such things just because it's in a Hadith collection on the basis of that alone.

    The Qur'an is an entirely different thing to that again, and the Qur'an itself urges readers/listeners to reflect and meditate on it's verses. I really don't think you Icehorse, with all due respect, have much of a case.
     
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  13. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    I guess that could be taken as a compliment..
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    It's a good point; but that is not the topic. Respectfully, it is a distraction. The topic is: A specific Hadith collection. Islam does not teach that 1 specific Hadith collection should be studied all by itself. Islam teaches that Hadith should be studied and compared to each other.

    BTW: I think that labeling Hadith "Scripture" is inaccurate. Also, are there any Muslims anywhere that label Hadith "infallible"?
     
  15. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    All due respect, you're talking about claims that Muslims make. They claim the book is a direct revelation. They have extremely weak evidence for this claim.

    As for my discomfort with the idea of divine revelation, you're simply wrong. What I don't buy is ANY extraordinary claim without extraordinarily good evidence. So if Allah shows up today (or tomorrow or the next day or..), and starts providing reliable, repeatable, and predictable evidence that she's the creator of the universe, that's fine.

    What I see is flawed scripture (and I'm happy to use a different term if you want to tell me a term that encompasses both the Quran and the Hadith). As for comparisons to the Bible, again for the sake of argument, I'm happy to grant you that the Bible is worse. That's an obvious ploy to try to shift the conversation. The Quran's merits - or lack thereof - stand on their own.

    Now if you've read the Quran and you can say there is nothing "even remotely bad" about it, I really can't imagine your value system. Because the Quran is filled with hatred towards non-Muslims, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, and calls for totalitarian society. Are your values aligned with those values?
     
  16. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    Well, yes. Your opinion there is as irrelevant as mine, I'm not a Muslim.

    Yeah, blahdeblah.

    It's not, but you should take things with more perspective. The Mahabharata of Hinduism has some vile stuff in it as well. The difference with Islam to the Bible, is that the Hadith are not the Bible and are not accepted without passing verification. The Hadith collections are filled with lots of slander towards Muhammad, this shouldn't come as a surprise when you find something that is not flattering in Hadith collections. Again, every Muslim knows this from the offset. Only Salafis take it at face-value.

    Yes, correct, this is what I said about. I didn't say it without first having read the Qur'an cover-to-cover several times.

    Without evidence, these are just your subjective beliefs and opinions. I think your full of **** personally, if you actually think this and aren't just trying to be provocative. These things you assert, are the polar opposite of the Qur'an's values, and those of Muhammad's teachings.
     
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  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all others; all monotheist books are just the same. I am the latest from Allah, and what I say has no option.
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I don't think there is a term that encompasses them both, my friend. One is claimed to be divine; the other is rumor. They are opposites.
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    No.
     
  20. Mudramoksha

    Mudramoksha Member

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    Lets see. So you state this, yet your tag says "I am an advaitist Hindu............and a strong atheist." The latter contradicts the former. You are a Monotheist if you follow Vedanta, that's pure fact. One cannot follow Vedanta and be an 'atheist' in any true sense, if you've actually read any of Adi Shankara's works and that of the rest of his tradition.

    The terms like "theist", "atheist", "pantheist", "panentheist", "monist" etc don't exist in the original languages, they're modern english terms for these concepts.
    The Jewish and Islamic concepts of Monotheism are generally synonymous with your Hindu concepts of Ultimate Reality, Islam itself even calls it the term "Ultimate Reality" but in arabic and obviously not sanskrit. Both Judaism and Islam emphasize that "God" cannot be separate from everything, else it would be a second "God" contradicting it's premise. Monotheism = Monism.
    The only thing separating these things are your biases brought upon by language.
     
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