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The gulf between us

Corvus

Feathered eyeball connoisseur
I am finding that I cannot communicate with theists here, the same pattern I have experienced elsewhere. We are simply so different that discussion is all but impossible. What am i doing wrong? Logic does not move these people, I have no other way of thinking. So we are at an impasse. How can I talk to these people in terms they will understand? It is frustrating because I wish to understand religious belief and religious people, if I am to judge religion and religious belief fairly and to treat religious believers less contemptuously and dismissively. As I have been tasked to do by RL persons.
 
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Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've not come across any discussions you've had. What areas are theists lacking in logic? And what is Grokk-ism?
 

Corvus

Feathered eyeball connoisseur
I've not come across any discussions you've had. What areas are theists lacking in logic? And what is Grokk-ism?
I have had dozens of failed discussions here now, usually ending up with me putting hostile theists who resent my dogged adherence to logic, on ignore. I was going to put you on ignore, because I also found you somewhat offensive, in earlier responses to me. However I did not.

All areas, religion is illogical from start to finish, mainly the rejection of the scientific method in favour of articles of faith, when those articles of faith contradict scientific theory. That's a problem.

The word grokk is a product of sci fi. It means to consider/think/know etc..my religion is thinking logically, with reasoned and considered appreciation of empirical data.
 
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bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I am finding that I cannot communicate with theists here, the same pattern I have experienced elsewhere. We are simply so different that discussion is all but impossible. What am i doing wrong? Logic does not move these people, I have no other way of thinking. So we are at an impasse. How can I talk to these people in terms they will understand? It is frustrating because I wish to understand religious belief and religious people, if I am to judge religion and religious belief fairly and to treat religious believers less contemptuously and dismissively. As I have been tasked to do by RL persons.

I find it hard that you have no other way of thinking then logically. Love, hate, jealousy, frustration and being able to emote with others is part of everyone through evolution. I believe if you use you emotional side then you will be able to communicate effectively with them.
 

Corvus

Feathered eyeball connoisseur
I don't want to hate theists basically, but I do feel antipathy for them. I know this is wrong and against my own beliefs in human rights and human dignity. I am trying to use reason to defeat hatred. I am trying to understand. I am looking for reasons not to persecute theists, in effect.
 
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DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
There is indeed a great gulf between theists and atheists. Our belief systems are very different, almost diametrically opposed to each other.

Atheists don't want to talk about creation and theists don't want to talk about "randomness."
 

Corvus

Feathered eyeball connoisseur
. I believe if you use you emotional side then you will be able to communicate effectively with them.
Emotions are not good at all. They delude and confound people. Emotive people make terrible mistakes.
 

Corvus

Feathered eyeball connoisseur
Atheists don't want to talk about creation and theists don't want to talk about "randomness."
I am more than happy to discuss creation. I am totally confident no God agency is involved either in abiogenesis or the big bang.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't want to hate theists basically, but I do feel antipathy for them. I know this is wrong and against my own beliefs in human rights and human dignity. I am trying to use reason to defeat hatred. I am trying to understand. I am looking for reasons not to persecute theists, in effect.

They feel their beliefs are logical and a part of reality just as we know we experience love and most pain from a stubbed toe.

I always wondered with anyone asking for scientific evidence from theist, what is your (anyone's) criteria for determining what a theist says is true or not?

Does it need to be proven for it tonbe true?

"Science" has not discovered everything. So, on both sides, Id think the theist and some who are not are in the same boat. You are claiming and/or lookijg for knowledge and proof of things we dont know.

Maybe take another approach. Put aside he science and use other grounds like psychology. Study of culture, and so forth. These are real just as gravity. Look at the patterns of history. Ask them about their experiences not about their faith. Its about experiences and emotional attachment. Ask a Pagan to prove their god exists. He would probably be taken aback. Its not all scientific.
 

Corvus

Feathered eyeball connoisseur
They feel their beliefs are logical and a part of reality just as we know we experience love and most pain from a stubbed toe.
There is no basis in logic for beliefs in unverifiable things. This discontinuity of reason is problematic for me. I have never experienced love, so I don't what that is. Physical pain yes.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I am finding that I cannot communicate with theists here, the same pattern I have experienced elsewhere. We are simply so different that discussion is all but impossible. What am i doing wrong? Logic does not move these people, I have no other way of thinking. So we are at an impasse. How can I talk to these people in terms they will understand? It is frustrating because I wish to understand religious belief and religious people, if I am to judge religion and religious belief fairly and to treat religious believers less contemptuously and dismissively. As I have been tasked to do by RL persons.
This doesnt make any sense.

If you think that atheists are being logical? Really?
No
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
There is no basis in logic for beliefs in unverifiable things. This discontinuity of reason is problematic for me. I have never experienced love, so I don't what that is. Physical pain yes.

I havent experience extreme hate to murder someone regardless the circumstance, I find it very illogical, yet throughout world history, most people would disagree and eve justify it by "what ifs".

Does my inexperience validate hate as non existant?

There are many types of theists. God(s) are defined in so many ways. Maybe find what they all have in common in relation to human needs and go from there?
 
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