The Great Wall of Trump

[lewisnotmiller]

So, slightly different take on this, I hope. Can we try and avoid rehashing discussion on whether the Wall is a waste of money, or who is going to pay for it for a moment?

Across the United States, most states saw no statistically significant change in the size of their unauthorized immigrant populations from 2009 to 2014. In the seven states where the unauthorized immigrant population declined, falling numbers of unauthorized Mexican immigrants were the key factor. Meanwhile, among the six states that had increases in their unauthorized immigrant populations, only one – Louisiana – could trace this to a rise in the number of unauthorized immigrants from Mexico.

Sources :
Overall Number of U.S. Unauthorized Immigrants Holds Steady Since 2009

Modern Immigration Wave Brings 59 Million to U.S., Driving Population Growth and Change Through 2065

Whilst there is no doubt Mexican cross-border immigration plays a substantial role in illegal immigration, immigration from Mexico is on the wane, and total Mexican immigrants in America is also lower than it was 5 years ago.

In Australia, we have constant discussion about border protection from boat people, despite the fact that the majority of our illegal immigrant population is made up of people who arrive on legitimate visas and then simply overstay.
Does discussion about the Wall similarly avoid addressing key aspects of illegal immigration in favour of a more identifiable group?
Assuming the Wall is effective, what impact would it have on illegal immigration as a whole, rather than just Mexicans crossing the border illegally in a simple fashion.

 

[George-ananda]

Does discussion about the Wall similarly avoid addressing key aspects of illegal immigration in favour of a more identifiable group?
Assuming the Wall is effective, what impact would it have on illegal immigration as a whole, rather than just Mexicans crossing the border illegally in a simple fashion.

The number of illegal immigrants will vary from time to time based on the economics, politics, drug violence, etc. in Mexico and other Central American countries. There can at any time be another big push/pull change into America and the numbers will rise again. Not an expert on Mexico myself, but their economy is slightly better but still pretty bad.

In 2012, 52% were from Mexico, 15% from Central America, 12% from Asia, 6% from South America, 5% from the Caribbean, and another 5% from Europe and Canada.[4]

If you add that up 78% come from Mexico, Central and South America and the Caribbean and I would assume the majority enter from the southern border. So, I think the impact on illegal immigration would be tremendous if Trump gets as serious as he claims.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Maybe that's just some leftist radical thought though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Lady Liberty must be a leftist then.

 

[Reggie Miller]

To continue what was happening in the last thread.


Please read this excerpt from the Mexican Officials to properly understand the context of this "pamphlet".

"Officials here say the small booklet, illustrated in comic-book style, is not intended to encourage illegal immigration, but to reduce the loss of life. Last year, more than 300 migrants died while crossing rivers and deserts to reach the United States."[1]

So I think the one sided way you framed it here is rather misleading. It's not like the Mexican government really just wants to infest the United States with Mexican people.

"The guidebook also advises would-be migrants to avoid hiring professional immigrant-smugglers and to refuse to carry packages for others."

Perhaps it is not the bad thing you think it is.



Perhaps the United States should rectify that by making it possible for illegals to properly immigrate and work.

Maybe that's just some leftist radical thought though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why don't they migrate legally? Is that too much to ask?

 

[George-ananda]

Perhaps the United States should rectify that by making it possible for illegals to properly immigrate and work.

The United States does support plenty of legal immigration but not for everybody in the world that wants to come illegally like half a billion would if they could.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In 2012, 52% were from Mexico, 15% from Central America, 12% from Asia, 6% from South America, 5% from the Caribbean, and another 5% from Europe and Canada.[4]

If you add that up 78% come from Mexico, Central and South America and the Caribbean and I would assume the majority enter from the southern border. So, I think the impact on illegal immigration would be tremendous if Trump gets as serious as he claims.

In 2012, 52% of the illegal immigrants in the US came from Mexico. But that does not mean 52% of the illegal immigrants arriving in 2012 entered were Mexican.
Only 7% of Mexican unauthorized immigrants had been in the U.S. for less than five years in 2014.

Sorry, I realise that sounds pedantic, and it might not change your point anyway, but I have found statistics misrepresented on both sides of this equation, due to the emotive nature (I guess).

(even more pedantically, I think it was 52% in 2014, not 2012. The Wiki article offers Pew research as a supporting footnote, but that's the source of my original OP, and it suggested 52% in 2014. Unimportant, just a sidenote.)

 

[Scuba Pete]

Lady liberty will always belong to the most widely accepted political ideology

No. She belongs to the ages.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[fantome profane]

Why don't they migrate legally? Is that too much to ask?

The real reason that the U.S. has so many illegal immigrants from Mexico is that the U.S. wants illegal immigrants from Mexico. I know you guys make a lot of noise and stamp your feet and shake your fists saying how wrong it is. But your economy is dependent on this source of cheap labour. If they all came over legally you would have to pay them a decent wage (they could unionise, strike, bargain). If you could snap your fingers and all illegal immigrants would be sent back to their home country, your economy would collapse.

That is why you have so many illegal immigrants. And that is why the wall will never work. Because those in your country who have real power don't want the wall to work.

 

[suncowiam]

I don't have an answer for that as it probably varies widely and I'm not well versed in American migration procedure.

However I can tell you that illegal immigrants have no choice but to be in certain fields of work and I don't doubt for a second they would switch had their migration status be changed.

I have relatives that waited years to legally immigrate to America. There are many potential legal immigrants being impacted by this. Why even have laws and upkeep some sense of structure if we simply allow illegal immigrants in? Why should those that obey the law lose their status to those that break it? Explain how and why this should be morally acceptable?

When folks like myself argue against illegal immigrants, it's not the immigrant part that we're arguing against. It's the illegal part that makes it wrong.

 

[suncowiam]

The real reason that the U.S. has so many illegal immigrants from Mexico is that the U.S. wants illegal immigrants from Mexico. I know you guys make a lot of noise and stamp your feet and shake your fists saying how wrong it is. But your economy is dependent on this source of cheap labour. If they all came over legally you would have to pay them a decent wage (they could unionise, strike, bargain). If you could snap your fingers and all illegal immigrants would be sent back to their home country, your economy would collapse.

That is why you have so many illegal immigrants. And that is why the wall will never work. Because those in your country who have real power don't want the wall to work.

"Us guys" being farmers and small businesses that have very small margins. This does not mean everyone.

If we want a system for low cost labor then we create a legal system for it. Who's to say that only Mexicans can only satisfy this need.

 

[Neo Deist]

Why don't they migrate legally? Is that too much to ask?

Many don't migrate legally because they can't wait years for the process to be approved and finalized. They need money NOW in order to support their families. They want a better life for their children. They need to be able to send money back to their elderly parents who are unable to work. The right to live and to take care of those you love...is that too much to ask?

Let me tell you something about Hispanics; they are some of the hardest working, most family oriented people on the planet. They will work from sun up to sun down and never complain. They will willingly do the jobs that many Americans refuse to do. They don't give two flips about political correctness or being offended by every freaking thing under the sun.

I say if they want to come in, let them. Don't turn them away. Don't deport them. Make them citizens! Chasing the American dream is not for "whites only."

And yes, I am a white male. And a cop.

 

[columbus]

Why don't they migrate legally? Is that too much to ask?

Because we will give far, far more jobs than green cards. That is the bottom line.
If we will give 4,000,000 jobs to Mexican workers, but only give a few tens of thousands of work permits, we are forcing people to immigrate illegally or just give up.
We are also eliminating the ability to vet them and monitor them once here.
Its stupid, the way the USA wants millions of cheap workers but won't legitimize them.
Tom

 

[columbus]

Because those in your country who have real power don't want the wall to work.

I believe that this is why Trump won't pull off any meaningful immigration reform. Millions of illegal workers both keep labor cheap and consumption up.
In other words, it's very good for Wall Street.
Tom

 

[Reggie Miller]

Because we will give far, far more jobs than green cards. That is the bottom line.
If we will give 4,000,000 jobs to Mexican workers, but only give a few tens of thousands of work permits, we are forcing people to immigrate illegally or just give up.
We are also eliminating the ability to vet them and monitor them once here.
Its stupid, the way the USA wants millions of cheap workers but won't legitimize them.
Tom

Sadly, you're right. It's our fault, too.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The wall is only a control. It's better to examine why people are leaving in the first place.

 

[fantome profane]

"Us guys" being farmers and small businesses that have very small margins. This does not mean everyone.

If we want a system for low cost labor then we create a legal system for it. Who's to say that only Mexicans can only satisfy this need.

I agree, I didn't mean to say it was the only way to met the demand for cheap labour. I am just pointing out that it is how the demand is being met now, to a significant degree. And to change that would be an interesting challenge. If the U.S. really wanted to solve the problem of illegal immigrants they would start by finding a way to ween their economy off of this particular source of cheap labour.

 

[sovietchild]

In 20 years Mexicans will probably fly over the wall with drones.

 

[suncowiam]

Firstly I'm unfamiliar with the concept of migration as a moral issue. I merely pointed out that illegal immigrants don't have a ton of options, so crime is the result of many of their travels.

Do you believe cutting in line to have any moral issues?

 

[columbus]

Do you believe cutting in line to have any moral issues?

That isn't what's going on here though.
It's more like there are 100 doors, 1 marked "legal" and 99 unmarked. The "legal" door has a years long line, but gets you benefits like documents. The other 99 just get you to a job, if you're willing to pay coyotes and brave the desert and stick to low paying jobs with no security. Lots of people will choose those doors because all they want is the job. They'll put up with the attendent crap, but they will get the job.
If we made 50 of those doors "legal" there wouldn't be so many people using the unmarked doors. And that would also require prosecution of the criminal employers. But it would give us the ability to monitor who gets in and what they do once here. It would also give us the ability to prioritize who gets in. I would much rather have people, and especially families, who intend to become part of our country. Put down roots and contribute something to society besides cheap labor.
Tom

 

[Mindmaster]

Firstly I'm unfamiliar with the concept of migration as a moral issue. I merely pointed out that illegal immigrants don't have a ton of options, so crime is the result of many of their travels.

Also sort of @lewisnotmiller, so my take is that I should stop following laws because they don't suit me? This is a the logic at work, and options or not it's ludicrous. You just can't keep a cohesive/safe society if someone is allowed to cheat. I'll contrive a pretty reasonable fantasy to illustrate:

For example, if you committed a minor crime (just a misdemeanor) as a US citizen you would be required to identify yourself with ID and then face whatever penalty. Whatever that punishment was (most likely a fine), it'll follow you around until you pay it. (Screwing up your credit, amongst other penalties...) An illegal in a sanctuary city cannot even be asked if they are illegal, so how can you force them to provide documents? What is the penalty when they break the law and give a fictitious name? That's right, nothing. This whole mess creates a privileged class who do not have to follow any of the rules, or pay the price when they do bad things. These people know that, and exploit it. They don't have to pay taxes, they get welfare and medical, and can even drive in most of these places. What advantage does citizenship bring? It seems a liability to me.