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Featured The Great Deception of Christianity - Departing the Faith (the Word)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Feb 17, 2020.

  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Soon does not mean in their life time. You are reading into the scripture what they are not saying. All the Apostles knew the teachings of JESUS that no man knows the day or the hour. Although we should all be living as if JESUS is coming at any time. There is no scripture that says JESUS was coming in the lifetime of the Apostles.
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Some scriptures to add context you seem to have left out provided below for your help...
    MATTHEW 16:27-28 has partial fulfillment in the next chapter in Matthew 17 at the transfiguration (Peter, John and James) *MATTHEW 17:1-6 but will have complete fulfillment at the second coming. The bible calls the first death a sleep *John 11:11-14; Matthew 9:24. At the second coming those that sleep in Christ (died) will be raised and brought back to life to witness the second coming of Christ with all the angels and with great glory. Death being referred to is the death of the wicked that does not have a resurrection to see the second coming. 1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-17 [15], For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    "This generation" I believe is in relation to the "last generation" that sees all the signs that are fulfilled in the last days of Matthew 24 it is not talking about the generation then present although some scholars try to apply this present generation to the destruction of Jerusalem. The proof of this is in the question the disciples asked JESUS in v3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world? V4-33 list all the signs that must be fulfilled before the second coming can take place. "This generation" is in reference to the final generation that will be alive after all the signs have been fulfilled! This generation after the fulfillment of all signs listed by Jesus shall not pass away before the second coming is come.
    Our life is only a short probation for the heavenly to those who believe and follow God's Word. We do not know when our time on earth is over. When our time on earth is over so is out probation and our cases are then decided for good or evil. Next thing we will know is waking up to see God and his reward is with him. "Coming soon" simply means that. Coming soon is not setting a date as JESUS tells us elsewhere no one knows the day or the hour *MATTHEW 24:36
    See previous section. I believe these scriptures refer to a special resurrection for all those who sat in judgement of JESUS who will see him coming in the cloulds of heaven with great power. Note once agian these scriptures do not say when JESUS will be coming only that those who sit in judgement will see him. DANIEL 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    Already answered, our life is only a short probation for the heavenly to those who believe and follow God's Word. We do not know when our time on earth is over. When our time on earth is over so is out probation and our cases are then decided for good or evil. Next thing we will know is waking up to see God and his reward is with him. "shortly come to pass" simply means that. Coming soon or shortly is not setting a date as JESUS tells us elsewhere no one knows the day or the hour *MATTHEW 24:36
    Already answered see previous section...
    1 JOHN 2:18 [18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (KJV)
    Greek words used here is last G2078; ἔσχατος; eschatos means last and final end, last or latter. While time G5610; ὥρα; hōra has a number of meanings and can include, day, hour, instant, season or short time. As the scriptures teach last time is not setting a date as JESUS tells us elsewhere no one knows the day or the hour *MATTHEW 24:36. A thousand years with God is as one day *2 PETER 3:8
    Already answered see previous section. As the scriptures teach short time is not setting a date as JESUS tells us elsewhere no one knows the day or the hour *MATTHEW 24:36
    Answered already see above..
    "DITTO" see previous sections...
    DITTO see previous sections already answered...

    .............

    So no please show me a single scripture where the disciples say JESUS was coming in their lifetime? - There is none!

    Hope this helps :)
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    That's what they all believed.. during their lifetime.

    Soon still means soon.

    Jesus never spoke of the end of the earth or the end of the world. He spoke of the end of an age.
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    There is no scripture that says JESUS was going to come in their life time. As posted earlier soon does not mean in their life time. You are reading into the scripture what they are not saying. All the Apostles knew the teachings of JESUS that no man knows the day or the hour. Although it is true we should all be living as if JESUS is coming at any time as we only have now and our time on earth can be over at any time. There is no scripture that says JESUS was coming in the lifetime of the Apostles now was there Soda and if there was no scripture why pretend that there is?
     
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Before this generation passes, before they taste death.... All the apostles and Paul thought Jesus' return was imminent... That's what Paul preached to the seven churches on his missionary travels.

    They didn't know the day or the hour but they were told it would be soon.. during their lifetime.
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The second coming is the end of the world as we know it today. It is also the end of this age and the coming of a new age with a new heavens and a new earth.

    MATTHEW 24:3 [3], And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world? (KJV).

    Greek word used for world here is αἰών; aiōn From the same as G104; properly an age ; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world ; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

    Hope this is helpful :)
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    "This generation" I believe is in relation to the "last generation" that sees all the signs that are fulfilled in the last days of Matthew 24 it is not talking about the generation then present although some scholars try to apply this present generation to the destruction of Jerusalem. The proof of this is in the question the disciples asked JESUS in v3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world? V4-33 list all the signs that must be fulfilled before the second coming can take place. "This generation" is in reference to the final generation that will be alive after all the signs have been fulfilled! This generation after the fulfillment of all signs listed by Jesus shall not pass away before the second coming is come.

    There is no scripture that says that the apostles thought JESUS was coming in their lifetime. Your reading into the scripture things that the scriptures do not say or teach. I am sure they all hoped that JESUS was coming in their lifetime though. There is a difference.

    One of the prophecies of the last days is this...

    2 PETER 3:3-16
    [3], Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    [4], And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    [5], For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    [6], Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    [7], But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    [8], But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    [10], But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    [11], Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    [12], Looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    [13], Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.
    [14], Why, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    [15], And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written to you;
    [16], As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

    ................

    What do you think those scriptures mean
    ? :)
     
    #267 3rdAngel, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    THIS generation isn't futuristic.
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe it is. Already answered see post # 267 linked at the top proving why or read the post you are quoting from. You saying so does not make it so because you say so. The reason I believe it is the final generation is that all signs must be fulfilled before the second coming occurs according to the scriptures. This is the last or final generation and JESUS says it is this generation that sees all the signs come to pass that will see the second coming. :)
     
    #269 3rdAngel, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Jesus didn't say all signs must be fulfilled.

    Are you saying Jesus was a failed communicator?
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but yep he did...

    MATTHEW 24:34 Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED. Which generation? The generation that sees all those things come to pass.

    No. You seem to be trying to promote this though. Not a very good fruit to be showing IMO.

    Hope this helps :)
     
    #271 3rdAngel, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  12. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Not in my opinion. Christianity has departed from Old Testament Messianic prophecy. The Christian messiah doesn't resemble the Hebrew one. Where do Old Testament scriptures say that the messiah will be a god, or will have a second coming, or be resurrected, or serve as the atonement for sin? It doesn't. It speaks of a human being called Immanuel, not Jesus, a great military leader who would win battles for Israel and who would end war and usher in an era of complete universal perfection

    Remember when I told you that an outsider has a more objective view of scripture, and this is a good example of that. I'm neither Jew nor Christian, but I am literate and can tell you what their words say, what your words say, and how they don't match.

    And before you attempt to disqualify my opinion, let me point out to you that I claim the same right to reject your scriptures and tell you what they mean that you claim for yourself when you tell the Jews that they are wrong about their scriptures.

    @Dan From Smithville doesn't feel the need to sanitize scripture. He's willing to look at what the words say and accept them at face value like I would. His faith doesn't seem to depend on sanitizing all of the warts and blemishes out of scripture like most Christian apologists do.

    So you say the words are ambiguous, and that "this generation" can mean either this generation present here and now, or any other generation in the future (shouldn't the phrase be "that generation" to describe a future generation?), and that "soon" can mean soon or millennia in the future? If so, then the words actually mean nothing specific.
     
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  13. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    What do you think of all this?

    Do you think that people that arbitrarily set themselves up as the judge of others feel that they are somehow promoting Christianity? Are they just abusing knowledge to feel better about themselves?

    In my opinion, discussion and debate are not the goal of posts like those of the OP. They appear to be attempts to persecute others and condemn them for not agreeing blindly with the claims expressed and implied in the OP and later posts. Being talked at and judged would drive people away and create discord rather bring people together in my opinion.
     
  14. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    All interpretations are bound to be flawed. Some more than others. But I do not think that God wants people to deliver their personal interpretations as if they are His words and then start judging others using those interpretations.

    In my opinion, that is what I have seen here.
     
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  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I don't think much of it. My interest is in exploring the scriptures, history and archaeology.

    For instance.. Re:the differences between Israel and Judah.


    1. Racially the area of the former Northern Kingdom of Israel had had, ever since the Assyrian conquest in the eighth century B.C., a more mixed population, within which more conservative Jewish areas (like Nazareth and Capernaum) stood in close proximity to largely pagan cities, of which in the first century the new Hellenistic centers of Tiberias and Sepphoris were the chief examples.
    2. Geographically Galilee was separated from Judea by the non-Jewish territory of Samaria, and from Perea in the southeast by the Hellenistic settlements of Decapolis.
    3. Politically Galilee had been under separate administration from Judea during almost all its history since the tenth century B.C. (apart from a period of “reunification” under the Maccabees), and in the time of Jesus it was under a (supposedly) native Herodian prince, while Judea and Samaria had since A.D. 6 been under the direct rule of a Roman prefect.
    4. Economically Galilee offered better agricultural and fishing resources than the more mountainous territory of Judea, making the wealth of some Galileans the envy of their southern neighbors.
    5. Culturally Judeans despised their northern neighbors as country cousins, their lack of Jewish sophistication being compounded by their greater openness to Hellenistic influence.
    6. Linguistically Galileans spoke a distinctive form of Aramaic whose slovenly consonants (they dropped their aitches!) were the butt of Judean humor.
    7. Religiously the Judean opinion was that Galileans were lax in their observance of proper ritual, and the problem was exacerbated by the distance of Galilee from the temple and the theological leadership, which was focused in Jerusalem.
     
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  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your response...
    Depends if you believe God's Word (the scriptures) or not. Can you show me from the scriptures why you claim that Christianity has departed from Old Testament Messianic prophecy? Or do you make the same mistake as the Jews do and mix up the prophecies with that point only to the 2nd coming of Christ with the first coming of the Messiah for which the earthly temple and sin offerings point to? The JEWS were indeed given the oracles of God (old testament scriptures) sadly most of them did not understand them, believe them or followed them. It seems you make the same mistake as the JEWS. I am happy to discuss this is detail proving why from the scriptures if your interested. Just let me know.
    I am sorry I believe it does not work that way according to the scriptures which say that the natural man (unbelievers) cannot receive not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he know them for spiritual things are spiritully discerned. If you do not know God or his Word you will never understand it as God needs to be your guide and teacher *ISAIAH 55:8-9; HEBREWS 8:11; JOHN 14:26.
    I believe you have no rights according to the scriptures because you do not know God therefore you cannot know God's Word so you cannot know what is true and what is not true. You do however only have an opinion that you cannot prove or know is truth.
    Your response..
    I do not think Dan has provided any scriptures has he? If so where?
    Your response...
    Not really. I believe the "last generation" has already been qualified to the one that sees the fulfillment of all the signs of the second coming and the context is the end of the world or age *MATTHEW 24:3. That is the generation that will not pass and will see the second coming. Though there is also application to the destruction of Jerusalem as pointed out earlier.

    Thanks for sharing your view. :)
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Jews expected an anointed, warrior king who would defeat Rome.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed that was why they missed the Messiah :)
     
  19. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, but I'm not interested in a theological debate. My interest here is in confirmation bias and faith-based thought. I've seen the scriptures, read and understood them notwithstanding your insistence that an unbeliever can't understand simple language and see that the principal character in the New Testament is not the one described in the Old Testament.

    Part of the problem between us is not just that we believe different things, but we use radically different processes to decide what is true about the world, and these will affect what we believe in ways that neither of us can penetrate. I can't reach you with reason and evidence, which is why I don't want to bring out scripture here for discussion. You believe what you do by faith, which is impenetrable to contradictory evidence.

    Nor will I budge any regarding your faith-based beliefs that can only be believed by faith, such as your claim that unbelievers cannot understand the Bible. I've given you an argument that unbelievers can understand it better along with examples, but that wasn't going to affect you. You believe what you do by faith, so there is no way to resolve our differences.

    Yes, but I feel no burden of proof with somebody who processes information by faith. I have zero hope of changing your opinion however much evidence I provide. You won't carefully and dispassionately consider the argument and evidence given with a willingness to be convinced by a compelling argument. You'll just begin to try to sanitize the discrepancies and contradictions.

    Scripture is not authoritative to me. You don't need to quote or paraphrase it to me as if it were. You know that I disagree.

    My rights don't come from scripture, and I decide what is true for myself - not by referencing any holy book or any other external source for the opinions of others, but by the process I have described to you repeatedly.

    I have demonstrated the truth of my opinion to myself by observing countless examples of believers trying to sanitize scripture with mental gymnastics in discussion with unbelievers.

    And no, I can prove nothing to you. Proving, or making a convincing argument, is a cooperative effort. I don't expect you to cooperate. I expect you to defend what you have chosen to believe by faith by any means you can think of.

    I don't think he's quoted scripture, either. My comment was to point out an example of a Christian who doesn't try to sanitize scripture. As best I can tell, except for his god belief, which appears to be well compartmentalized so as not to interfere with reasoning, he processes information the way I do, which is true of several of the Christians posting on RF. I know this because their arguments are reasoned and evidenced, and their conclusions appear sound. They also happen to agree with mine providing intersubjective support for the notion that we're both correct.

    Because we all share this method of deciding what is true, when we disagree, we have a means to sort out where and why, and possibly resolve the disagreement if it is over a matter of fact or logic, or at least identify why we disagree if it is because we have different values, in which case we can still say to one another that although we don't agree, if we had the values of the other, we might come to the same conclusion. That's the power of this mode of thinking.

    But when dealing with a faith-based confirmation bias, that can never happen. That person and I process information too differently for their to be any hope of either moving the other.
    • "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic? Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, "Well, that's not how I choose to think about water"? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn't share those values, the conversation is over." - Sam Harris
    That's where you and are at.

    Yes, I know, and you know that I believe that ambiguous language doesn't have a specific meaning. If a passage can be read in two or more ways, nobody except the source of the passage can say it meant any particular thing. The apologist will pick the meaning he likes best. I don't. I take the words at face value. This is what an apologist does:
    He starts with the assumption that the scripture cannot be in error, therefore, what those words must have meant courtesy of a faith-based confirmation bias. I am burdened with no such constraint in interpreting the words. I am free to say, "No, it is not obvious that Jesus did not mean the generation present to hear him. It could easily be a failed prediction as well." And there is no hope of getting the believer to agree, which is why I say that going to an unbeliever will get you a more neutral and evidence-based interpretation of scripture.

    Likewise. It's always a polite and pleasant discussion with you.
     
    #279 It Aint Necessarily So, Feb 22, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Hatred of Catholicism is not a bias you can overcome with education. Notice the website.

    Who Is The Beast That Enforces The Mark?
    markbeast.org/mark-beast-who.html
    The identity of the beast was first discovered in 1517 by Martin Luther who was a Roman Catholic Priest. He found that the beast is none other than the very Church he belonged to. Thus, what we are dealing with is not the mark of the devil but the mark of the beast, which more specifically is the mark of the Roman Catholic Church.
     
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