1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Great Conflagration

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Sep 23, 2022.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,449
    Ratings:
    +7,365
    Religion:
    Judaism
    That's one way. But there's another way where one isn't consumed. It's the path of humility and faith.
     
  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    14,830
    Ratings:
    +3,389
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    when we are humbled we are in an awe of something. we have that child like sense of wonder/wander to aspire to.


    How the strong get weak and the rich get poor - slave to love - bryan ferry

    the self annihilates in the pursuit only to find what it already is - conference of the birds - Attar of Nishapur.

    acts 17:28

    the awe of love is the beginning of understanding



    6. Valley of Wonderment, where, entranced by the beauty of the Beloved, the Wayfarer becomes perplexed and, steeped in awe, finds that he has never known or understood anything.
    7. Valley of Poverty and Annihilation, where the self disappears into the universe and the Wayfarer becomes timeless, existing in both the past and the future.




     
    #3 Fool, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,449
    Ratings:
    +7,365
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Hmm. Yes we are in awe, but I disagree that it leads to wandering and aspiration. Humility also cultivates healthy fear, like the fear of a fire burning one's hand. This healthy fear discourages wandering which is helpful for the adherent to maintain focus.
    "slave to love" - interesting, I thought you would advocate for freedom?
    1) What do you think happens to the child-like wonder once the self is annihilated?

    2) What if there is a better way? My point is that there is a way without annihilation. It requires the appropriate vessel. Remember the tea analogy.

    3) Regarding the conference of birds, at the end of the story what happens to the birds? Wikipedia reports "They eventually come to understand that the majesty of that Beloved is like the sun that can be seen reflected in a mirror. Yet, whoever looks into that mirror will also behold his or her own image." After self annihilation, I wonder if the birds do anything other than gaze at their beloved ( themself ) in the mirror?
    "For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring'" It's not that I disagree, but I think this statement is incomplete.

    Psalm 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, a great King above all gods.

    This verse does not tolerate self annihilation and realisation that all is God. Even if we are gods ( lowercase ) we are not God. It's an important distiction because self realization is not the same as knowing God. Not according to our shared scripture.
    fear of God is the beginning of wisdom
    ... yes ...
    From my POV, self annihilation and realization interferes with a relationship with God.
     
    #4 dybmh, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    14,830
    Ratings:
    +3,389
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    Not when self and God are one and the same. God is not viewed as something separate. Not something in contrast. It is all and in all.
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,449
    Ratings:
    +7,365
    Religion:
    Judaism
    1). Self and God are one isn't in Tanach and is refuted by Psalms 95:3. Maybe it doesn't matter unless your position looks to scripture for support.

    2) Self and God cannot be one once the self is annihilated? Annihilation leads to oblivion not unity.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,659
    Ratings:
    +1,666
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe love can't be fire because God is love and God is not fire.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    20,659
    Ratings:
    +1,666
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe self and God are only one in Jesus. The rest of us are separate.
     
Loading...