The grace of God, forgiveness and karma

[Jainarayan]

I wish I could remember where I found the info about instant moksha on remembering the Lord at death.

I found it.

"Whoever thinks of Me alone even at the time of death, attains to My state on abandoning the body. There is no doubt about this." 8.5 Bhagavad Gita VIII

Bhagavad-Gita: Chapter 8, Verse 5 with commentaries.

 

[ratikala]

dear jainarayan ,

Ive been rather bussy just lately so unfortunately missed the bigining of the thread but you have raised some interesting questions here

My understanding of all this may be wrong, but isn't karma subject to being overridden by God? It seems that many or most of us think of karma as the first and foremost arbiter of our futures, with God taking a hands-off approach. I can't presently find the verse in the Bhagavad Gita, but I seem to recall Sri Krishna saying that not a blade of grass grows without His knowledge. And then there are the other verses that indicate that He takes an active role in running the universe and assisting in our salvation by His grace and His forgiveness of transgressions. If this is so, then we have a much closer relationship with God, that supercedes the laws of karma.

by saying "If this is so, then we have a much closer relationship with God, that supercedes the laws of karma." .......you have answered the human dilema ..." what is purpous of life ? " and given that we accept that there is in what ever form we perceive him, a god , a supreme controler . .....that life which we question the purpous of , is then a god given life ! ......what then is the purpous of that god given life ? .... to realise our relationship with god .
which ever religion one subscribes to this is universal , we all understand the benifit of being born in human form as opposed to having received an animal birth to be that of the capacity to reason , thus the capacity to realise god , to understand his grace or mercy .
We may all envisage our relationship with god in different ways , but still those that belive in a god all belive to some extent in his grace .

his grace , his mercy , his blessing is showered upon us in so many ways , but in this instance purely by receiving human birth and being blessed with reasoning we are blessed with the free will to come to god and in the same way we rejoice in the knowledge of god , god similarly rejoices in our choice to move towards him .

we give him the highest gift of love and in return he recipricates by blessing us with his mercy . not that he is a cruel god who denies love to those who do not realise him , it is simply that he canot help but move towards those who move towards him , just as we would reach out to embrace a freind that reaches out towards us .

prehaps it is at first difficult to understand that karma and free will can opperate along side of each other both having influence on the subsequent outcome ....we may choose to and make dilliberate efforts to get to know god , this choice is our practice of sadhana , but through that concious choice to make efforts to know god come the un seen reactions of that effort , ... the blessing bestowed by god , his grace , his mercy , that removes the ill efects of past deeds thus clearing the dust of ignorance which veils our true understanding or knowledge of god .

Having been raised Christian, I am used to the idea of God being personal and highly involved in our welfare and salvation (I was always a renegade ), being very hard to offend and push away, much as we see Sri Krishna in Vaishnavism. I'm not sure I understand just when and where God steps in to ameliorate the effects of karma, based on popular belief that karma is the controlling factor. I prefer to think of God as constantly bestowing grace and forgiveness when the bhakta is sincere.

I am not sure that I understand the christian or abrahamic veiw of god but I am sure that we each as individuals have minute differences in out conception of god and it is only when our understandings are perfected that we reach agreement as to the atributes of god but in ways one could say that all human veiws of god are imperfect therefore incomplete , once complete realisation of god exists the need for religion and sect melt away .

I could desribe by the analogy of god as our master , our guru , our father ,... if we as his subject , his student ,or his child , were to show devotion , were to give attention to his words , were to show reverence and make efforts to fullfill his instructions , would he not be delighted with us , would he not rejoice and show his pleasure just as a father delights in his sons accheivements ? ... and would he not then set us the next task dependant upon our current ability ? ... for as a loving father , guru or master he is thinking cinstantly of our wellbeing .

in this way even his tests are a gift of his mercy

I am thinking that God(dess) does as much as S/He can to give us grace and help to improve our station in life, thereby achieving a higher birth. Or if we reject that, then we fall down. Thoughts?

exactly ! ... "WE" fall down, ....but like all children it is our nature to fall , it is his grace wich lifts us up . :namaste


thoughts ? ....... our sucession of lives are but days in kindergarten under the loving care of the lord , as we grow so his tutorledge begins , this takes more lifetimes than we may at first perceive , but being eternal and a personification of bliss he is a loving and patient lord everything is by his mercy , thus krsna said that not a blade of grass moves without his sanction .
so he permits our falling down , he grants our free will to come to him out of love in our own time , yet his grace , his guidance , his shelter , his mercy is there for us allways . we will accept and appreciate the lord in our own time , that also is his mercy .

 

[Jainarayan]

Thanks for the thoughts. You expanded on what I think. :namaste