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Featured The Gospels in Islam: Authentic or Corrupted?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Aug 20, 2019.

?
  1. Authentic

    13.0%
  2. Mostly authentic

    8.7%
  3. Mostly corrupt

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Corrupt

    26.1%
  5. I don’t know

    8.7%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thinking

    43.5%
  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it was all unsupported noise. They don't want to know the truth because then they can see how far short they fall.

    Of course I believe the Hadiths qualify as man written dribble. The texts themselves reveal it.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Jesus does say that but it could not be otherwise because as God in the flesh He can only speak the words of God.
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Firstly posted numerous verses, plus a link, and am generally correlating a whole texts if putting concepts forward; so within the Quran there are numerous statements, that confirm what has happened in the Bible, and can justify each from both books.

    Secondly read it in contexts of the passage, it is referring to those who have corrupted what is within the Torah...

    Moses stated in Deuteronomy 28, that the Curse would be placed after they defiled the Law; this happened in Zechariah 11 where they paid 30 pieces of silver for the price of Yeshua...

    When the Quran says they sold their covenant for a small price (3:77), that is part of what that statement means: they rewrote the Curse in the books of Paul, John, and Simon stating (Christian) Gentiles should be grafted on to the nullified covenants.

    Instead of Gentiles accepting that what Moses has stated has happened on a global scale, many people have become atheists, as they think it is all fantasy, when it has all very blatantly happened...

    If you read all them verses posted with that knowledge of the events it is referring to, the Quran makes much more sense when both books are put together.

    2:75 Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing? (76) And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We have believed"; but when they are alone with one another, they say, "Do you talk to them about what Allah has revealed to you so they can argue with you about it before your Lord?" Then will you not reason? (77) But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare? (78) And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming. (79) So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #83 wizanda, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  4. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    There are no original manuscripts of any of the Christian stories, either the ones in the bible, or those left out of it.So discussions of corrupted texts are all based on copies of copies anyway.
     
  5. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    The problem in this thread is that the Muslim position, i.e. the Qur'an's position, is that "the Gospel given to Jesus" is not spelled out in the Qur'an. Furthermore, Islam and Muslims apparently deny that the Bible is an uncorrupted and credible source for "the Gospel given to Jesus" except where what the Bible says does not conflict with what the Qur'an says. The Muslim position is not a position that any traditional Christian would accept who acknowledges, at a minimum, the execution, entombment, resurrection, and ascension of the Jew, Jesus of Nazareth.
     
  6. FooYang

    FooYang Active Member

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    But it is.
    How have you come to this conclusion?

    You can't generalize, besides there isn't much reason that a Muslim should be concerned with any of the Bible, when there is no direct revelation to be found in it's pages. Must raise an eyebrow about the Bible?

    This is true, I often see far more Christians that hate Islam than ones that like it. The idea that their secondhand narrative of Jesus dying for your sins is not legitimate seems to get under many Christian's skins. It's cute.
     
  7. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    This is your faith perspective. It is based on your opinion and interpretation of the NT. Many of your fellow Christians would disagree.

    Jesus certainly questioned the perspectives of the Pharisees and the religious orthodoxy of His day. I'm sure many of His fellow Jews considered His opinions ludicrous too. They even arranged to have Him crucified!

    Muslims view Muhammad as a Messenger of God who had the authority from God to correct misunderstandings and interpretative errors that had arisen in previous religions including Christianity.

    Muhammad's theology may bring about strong negative reactions for you but for many the Quran is viewed as the inerrant Word of God.
     
  8. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I fully agree and accept what Muhammad said about a Revelation being given to Jesus and that Muhammad has not referred to any specific book. I'm not sure why you keep repeating something I have already agreed to?

    We have also covered how the word Gospel can have multiple meanings depending on context. It certainly has some different meanings for Christians and Muslims which is to be expected. Still there's overlap.

    For the record I agree with many Christians that there is no variance or inconsistency between what Christ taught and what the apostle Paul taught. Its a little off topic though and we should first focus on what Jesus taught as recorded in the NT.

    See what I mean about you repeating yourself!:D

    We can hopefully agree on the process by which the Teachings of Jesus were passed down by oral traditions and eventually written. That's simply historic fact.

    The recorded Words of Muhammad in the Quran, those of Jesus in the Canonical Gospels and those of Moses in the Torah vary from each other in their style or manner of expression. That is to be expected as the cultures where each of these Great Faiths emerged were very different from each other. The recorded Teachings of Jesus in the Canonical Gospels includes historic and theological narrative as part of the exposition. That is stylistically quite different from the Quran, but for me it neither negates or takes anything away from the authenticity and authority of these four major works that constitute the first four books of the New Testament.

    I see no distinction between the theology that Jesus taught and aspects of that theology that relate to His exalted personage. That is a strength, not a weakness the NT gospels. The Quran OTOH has little to say about Muhammad Himself. We need to turn to the Hadiths and Sirat which are often contradictory and not necessarily reliable.

    The Revelation of Jesus recorded in the NT Gospels was not all about Jesus.

    Like many Christians, I see no significant contradictions between the NT accounts which would affect theology.

    I have examined what scholars have said and of course there will be a huge variety of opinion. Christian scholars seem to be much more able to have these discussions that Islamic scholars.

    Its a big ask to have me summarise the entire theology of Jesus.:D

    He emphasised that we should turn towards God and follow His commandments, the greatest of which was the law of love. We should love God, love our neighbours and even our enemies. We should be fair and just in our dealings with others. We should not be hypocritical and our deeds and words should be consistent. There's a lot more I could say. You are best to ask specific questions as to what I believe Jesus taught and why. :)
     
  9. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    @FooYang

    Me: "The Gospel given to Jesus" is not spelled out in the Qur'an.
    FooYang: But it is.
    Me: Marvelous. I'd be pleased to read it for myself. In which chapter(s) and verse(s) can I read the Qur'an's version of "the Gospel given to Jesus"?

    Me: Islam and Muslims apparently deny that the Bible is an uncorrupted and credible source for "the Gospel given to Jesus" except where what the Bible says does not conflict with what the Qur'an says.
    FooYang: You can't generalize,...
    Me: I think you'd very surprised what I can do. Generalizations are "kid's play."
    FooYang: ...besides there isn't much reason that a Muslim should be concerned with any of the Bible, ...
    Me: Right. And personally, I can't think of a reason that I should be concerned that a Muslim isn't concerned with any of the Bible.
    FooYang: ...when there is no direct revelation to be found in it's pages.
    Me: "No direct revelation in its pages"? So you believe that either Abraham was delusional or the direct revelations to Abraham are myths? Have you told the Jews? I'm sure that they would be amused to hear that.
    FooYang: Must raise an eyebrow about the Bible?
    Me: Not mine. What does raise my eyebrow is your apparent belief that you can jerk my chain or convert me to Islam. You're not trying to do either, are you? Save your strength.

    FooYang: I often see far more Christians that hate Islam than ones that like it.
    Me: Me too. Silly isn't it? It's not worth the effort liking or hating it.
    FooYang: The idea that their secondhand narrative of Jesus dying for your sins is not legitimate seems to get under many Christian's skins. It's cute.
    Me: Personally, I consider it silly and amusing. IMO, a Muslem's opinion about Jesus of Nazareth has no more value than an atheist's or agnostic's opinion, and--in my experience--it's usually less clever. Jesus of Nazareth is currently untouchable. He certainly doesn't need little ol' me to defend his reputation.
     
    #89 Terry Sampson, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  10. FooYang

    FooYang Active Member

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    5:46: "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Injeel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."

    5:65: "If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Injeel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil."

    This is speaking of the revelations to the Prophets themselves, in an identical manner to the Qur'an.

    You've got pseudobiographical accounts of his life, sure. Where is the book revealed to Abraham? there is no such thing in the Bible, only narratives of his life in Genesis :rolleyes:

    :tearsofjoy:

    I'm trying to convert you to Hinduism. Why do you think I'm trying to convert you to anything?

    Why should a Christians opinion be more valuable than a Marcionite? or a Sethian? or a Manichaean?

    The list goes on. I just find it strange you uphold Christianity for no reason at all.
    But aside from this, you are not arguing against "a Muslem's opinion", you are claiming more validity of four randomly chosen biographies of Jesus' life (by the early Christian institution), against God's own word about Jesus. Big difference.
    My question to you is, why do you simultaneously accept prophets while not accepting revelation from God?
     
    #90 FooYang, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  11. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    @FooYang


    FooYang: You've got pseudobiographical accounts of his life, sure. Where is the book revealed to Abraham? there is no such thing in the Bible, only narratives of his life in Genesis
    Me: So let me get this straight: Are you saying that a revelation to Abraham has to be a book given to Abraham, and since there is no such book, the personal encounters and verbal exchanges recorded in Genesis are "pseudobiographical accounts of his life" and "apocryphal" [my word, not yours] "narratives of his life in Genesis", but they aren't direct revelations?

    FooYang: I'm trying to convert you to Hinduism.
    Me: LOL!
    FooYang: Why do you think I'm trying to convert you to anything?
    Me: I didn't say that you were trying to convert me to something. I said: "What does raise my eyebrow is your apparent belief that you can jerk my chain or convert me to Islam." Then I asked for clarification: "You're not trying to do either, are you?" A simple "No" would have been sufficient. I'd have taken your word for it.

    FooYang: Why should a Christians opinion be more valuable than a Marcionite? or a Sethian? or a Manichaean? The list goes on.
    Me: I don't know why a Christian's opinion should be more valuable to you than an X, a Y, or a Z. For the record, I really don't care what you believe or why.

    FooYang: I just find it strange you uphold Christianity for no reason at all.
    Me: And I find it strange that you bother wondering why I "uphold Christianity". And I find it doubly strange that you're willing to assume that I believe what I believe "for no reason at all." If you had wanted to know why I believe what I believe, you could have just asked.

     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Not really brother. Quran will narrate an example of something that happened. But a statement is made that is general to all. And if you study the Quran this is prevalent all through out. This particular statement is general. And if you read from the beginning to the chapter till the end, you will that it begins by defining that this book is for the righteous, not for the Muslims alone. And a few verses prior to the "write with your own hands" verse it speaks of a general salvation in 2:62. So do you insist that this is also only referring to the Jews because there next verse is about Moses? Also how about 2:76? 3 verses prior?? It speaks about those who claim to be Mumeens. And does it mean by gentiles? Its Ummi, the same word used for the prophet Muhammed. He is Ummi Nabi.

    No. The verse 2:79 does not refer to Jews. If you study the Quran you would clearly see that Jews are referred as Yahoodhi. Bani Israela is a different designation. And even if you wish to completely put this verse on them yet it only means that people made up their own religious ideas and attributed it to God.

    No. 3:77 is misquoted here and you are trying to associate it to a verse in the Bible. I thought you normally take it in context brother.

    It speaks of Sharaya. Exchange. Sold or purchased. Sold or purchased for a little value. It does not refer to your quote from the Bible. There are many things to learn from these set of verses. You have quoted one single verse. It speaks about those who will return what they borrow, and those who lie about what's written, etc. This is speaking about those who cheat or do unethical things for a cheap advantage. Small advantage.

    You have attributed it to selling of a thing for a number of silver. Thats absolutely wrong. This is a huge problem with understanding the language.

    You use the word Gentile. Well, the Quran calls the prophet Muhammed the "Gentile prophet" in that case. You have not understood what that means.

    It does not say "Distort the Torah". Thats an interpolation.

    It says "Kalaamullah" A generic word. It means "God's words". Its a generic term.

    This is repeatedly speaking about those who attribute their religious fabrications to God. Anyone. All.
     
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  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    This isn't really off topic, it is at the heart of it, and the idea you miss that I'm here as Christ telling you this repeatedly down near Hell before Judgement Day; is part of the problem with everyone's comprehension issues with the Abrahamic case - people don't go the extra mile, they go equal or opposite.

    To rightly divide a case, and be logical we need to dissect it into its logical parts.

    If we're not going to recognize the manipulations that are taking place, we will not understand the depths the devil has gone to:

    Galatians 1:8-9 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any “Gospel” other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed. (9) As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any “Gospel” other than that which you received, let him be cursed.

    Paul has literally rewrote the "Gospel", sealing it from anyone changing it (even God), and if we're not taking it on board, how can we acknowledge why the Quran says the book has been corrupted?

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Quran is not about Muhammed. the prophet Muhammed is only fleetingly mentioned. Its not about any prophet. It is about the message.

    I did not ask you to summarise the theology of Jesus. You have misunderstood the question.

    Alright. You spoke of Christians scholars. Christian scholars believe that the Gospel of John was written by 4 different schools of thought.

    What do you say about that?
    If you don't see a difference, you actually disagree with many Christian scholars though you say you agree. This is basic curriculum in New Testament studies.
     
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  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Brother. With all due respect you have made this a discussion into the exaltation of Jesus Christ.

    Anyway, can you quote me an "and ascension of the Jew, Jesus of Nazareth" as you said? I mean in the New Testament. Lets take the four gospels.
     
  16. Shia Islam

    Shia Islam Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
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    Hi,
    Great Post!
    Let me say that we have a detailed hadith on the subject.
    I have no time to search for it now, however here is the summary of its meanings,
    After the death of Jesus the original gospel (the Injil) was lost..
    So accorroding to my rememrance one or more of the diciples started to recite what he has rembered from the lost diciple and they wrote it.

    So the resulted written gospel is different from the orginal lost one.
     
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  17. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Actually, all I was doing was responding to Muffled's post:


    Screenshot_2019-08-21 The Gospels in Islam Authentic or Corrupted .png

    Mark 16:19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.

    Luke 24:50-53
    50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising God.

    Acts 1:1 The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.

    Acts 1:9-11
    9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Agreed, that any texts that applies moral ethics, and understandings should be applied to all...

    Yet you're arguing so much, you're not taking on board, I did not post only one verse.
    I never say only, I always say there are multiple sides to any dice, and most people will cite there is only 1, when there is a 6 on the other side.

    There are applied contexts, and then contexts start precept upon precept, a true Servant of God reads all the religious texts without distinction; so once we understand the Biblical contexts, we can see why the Quran makes some of these statements.
    It is item specific, I'm a computer programmer, and don't deal with contexts like a Pharisee (straining out a gnat and gaining a camel)...

    The statements in 2.62 define who it is talking about by name:

    2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

    It doesn't have to refer to Jews, as you've rightly just explained, if "Kalaamullah" means "God's words"; where we know the Pharisees rewrote the Gospel, distorting the message, and sold it for a small price, then we have evidence, a case, history, and everything stated taking place as the books reveal, and you have an alternative meaning you want to apply.
    Lets read back from verse 3:70-77, and each line before and after talks of the people of the book, and then some scholar has made up a bigoted idea that doesn't match the Bible; the books are one, and the idea you're now dividing them is not what a Servant of God should do.

    There is an item specific context, it defines who it is talking about, what is being referenced, that they deny parts, and almost reject their religion, and then sell their covenant for a small price...

    This is stated by Isaiah 50:1 where it says they sold their covenant for a small price, and divorced themselves, and in Zechariah 11 it defines it...

    The Quran confirms it, and you deny that is the context. :oops:
    Please try not to keep saying "you're wrong", "you don't know", etc, it is a very rude way to communicate; as a servant of God, then we should always be humble in debate showing evidence.

    The word "Gentile" is an item specific term in the Tanakh first, have you read all the Bible, and do you accept all the message globally as one?

    Then have you studied what the Talmud says about Gentiles?

    Then do you understand the contexts that are applied to them, even by Yeshua?

    Then when we've done all of that, do you know why Muhammad was sent to free the Gentiles of the lies already given them, and if you don't know all of that, why are you assuming on so much of this; as you clearly are missing some of this to make such a naive statement?

    Since you are unaware of the prophetic contexts being applied, will explain for you as Christ here before Judgement day:

    The Gentiles in the Torah are the unlearned animals of other nations, as people in the past were very barbaric, so they would refer to them as "dogs" or "swine" as they eat pig, and act like savages...

    When Yeshua said "do not give pearls to swines, or what is holy to the dogs" (Matthew 7:6), he is saying the Gentiles will not understand the Bible, and thus will destroy the Jews later...

    Muhammad is saying the Jews have lied to the Gentiles, and that God wants everyone to come to understanding, not just some...

    When we read the Tanakh, it already was made clear that God wanted to make the Jews priests unto the Gentiles (Exodus 19:6, Isaiah 61:6)...

    Yet as Isaiah suggested the Talmud states the Gentiles are animals, and deserve to die, as they're not smart enough to learn.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #98 wizanda, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Lets take one example.

    This is not in the earlier manuscripts. And is largely considered as interpolation.

    So is this.

    Taken up doesn't mean crucified, dead and resurrected and ascended unto heaven. that's your own interpretation because of a preconceived notion.

    Then you are quoting acts. Not the four canonical gospels. This is why its a faith statement. Not textual analysis.
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Quran isn't the issue, it is people who are hypocritical; the Quran warned this would happen, as did Yeshua:

    9:97 The wandering Arabs are more hard in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be ignorant of the limits which Allah hath revealed unto His messenger. And Allah is Knower, Wise.

    We're in a reality of equal and opposite reactions, not many go the extra mile; in other words: listening, and expanding on something, not going to accuse it (goats) or partially follow it (sheep).

    Thus we have Muhammadans claiming to be Muslims (Servants of God); yet they follow Muhammad, and reject all the other religious texts globally, when the Quran says that is who the unbelievers are:

    2:285 The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

    10:47 And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged.

    4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

    Like if we take on board a Rabbinic Jew doesn't follow the Bible, they follow oral traditions, a Muslim is a Muhammadan, a Christian follows John, Paul, and Simon...

    Thus hardly any follow Christ, and the world is currently doomed, as they all keep arguing to the point of WW3 is soon...

    "Thus blessed are the peacemakers, as they shall be called children of God" (Matthew 5:9) should be more clear in that context.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #100 wizanda, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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