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Featured The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I believe Jesus is the Father. And the Father is not always called Ho Theos. Therefore we conclude that just because we see Theos without Ho; that doesn't necessarily mean it's not about the Father.

    Secondly, that's not enough "evidence" to translate John 1:1 as being about two separate Gods. Especially when you consider all the evidence against that position.
     
  2. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    A god is not being called God. It means has godlike qualities. God did it all through Jesus( Acts 2:22)
    If the word is God as in trinity translations then in simple trinity talk--God( Logos) was with God( Ho Theos) in the second line is the impossible reality.
    And at Revelation 3:12-- trinity teaching has to be--God has a God - another impossible reality.
     
  3. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Apparently God doesn't think so:

    "You must never have any other gods besides me." Deuteronomy 5:7 NWT

    " You must not have any other gods besides me." Exodus 20:3 NWT

    That is a Watchtower and not a Trinity "teaching".

    Let's not forget the dual nature of Jesus (which is a biblical and Trinitarian teaching). Anyone who understands they may have a dual nature (like husband and Father, student yet teacher, etc.) can also understand the dual nature of Jesus.

    Making Jesus "a god" automatically nails him as a false God, because there are no other gods beside God.

    That is why the corrupt Judges of Israel were condemned, because they were made into false gods.
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Of course the JWS will argue that there are other "gods" mentioned in the Bible like in Psalms 82. But, that doesn't change the fact that Paul says "but to us there is but one God the Father".

    I bolded "to us" because that is to the true church. The true church only has one Theos and can only ever have one Theos who is the Father.

    So for them to say that Jesus is not God most High but is a --little g-- "god" means they disqualify their doctrine. Because they have two gods. A greater and lesser Theos and that cannot be.
     
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The Logos is called Theos. You can't say the Logos is not called Theos. As for Ho Theos; your argument only makes sense if in the Greek the Father is always called "Ho Theos". He is not. He is referred to as simply Theos.
     
  6. ProveYourFaith

    ProveYourFaith ProveYourFaith

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    "The Word created Flesh which dwelt among us" Simple translation error. Verse 1:13 clearly says flesh and blood are not the Word. This is why the belief Jesus never came in the flesh was created if he was flesh he wasn't the Word literally. In the beginning was the Word, The will of God started it all. The Word was with God, God had a will. The Word was God, God is known by his will. There is nothing that allows us to read into the term Word as anything other than the will of God which is the Word of God. Did he not speak creation into existence? Is Jesus his audio? The word in John 1 is simply the expressed will of God.
     
    #106 ProveYourFaith, Nov 17, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  7. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    But at John 1:1--He is called HO THEOS. The Logos is not.
    No trinity god exists. It is 100% fact. It was created at the councils of Catholicism( the religion that came out of Rome=2Thess 2:3) the tree trunk, 33,999 branches-Mark 3:24-26-- a house divided will not stand.
     
  8. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus never said he was God, he never claimed to be God or god. God inspired the words at John 1:1-- A capitol G God is error in the last line. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation-the very first-direct-first and last. All other things created through him= Gods master worker-- Proverbs 8 is the being who came. It is not YHVH speaking.
     
  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Who said God was a trinity? I believe God is a unity. Not at trinity. There were oneness believers before the trinity doctrine. Take for example Sabellianism.

    As for Ho Theos ... You can't even prove the Father is always called Ho Theos. So you really don't have a point.
     
  10. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus does--John 20:17, Rev 3:12--as does Paul--1Cor 8:6
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe relationship is a relative thing. Even Satan has a relationship with God. How mnay Jw's hear God speak directly to them and how would they verify it was God?
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe just because you say so doesn't make it so. I rely on the Holy Spirit for my information.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Paul says he saw Jesus but I don't remember him saying the vision was corporeal.
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't prove it.
     
  15. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Fact-- trinity teachers=Jesus is God--Jesus=He has a God--Who is correct? Who should be believed? I choose Jesus--He is the way, the truth and the life.
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    But, I'm not Trinitarian. Ever heard of Sabellianism or any other type of Oneness?

    Jesus is God and has a God; both are correct. Because with Jesus you have flesh and Spirit. Clearly, the flesh is created but the Spirit can be eternal. Even Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. So, if Jesus could preexist birth as an angel; then He can be conceived to preexist as God.

    However, even if you assumed for a moment (For the sake of argument) that I was right and that Jesus did preexist birth as God. Yet, because God created Himself a body to dwell in on earth; means that at least the flesh and blood body of Jesus has a Creator and therefore has a God. Do you follow my logic?
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    What you wrote above can indeed be considered "Trinitarian" as it is a form of "Oneness" (Three in One).
     
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  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the "Three in one" doctrine because it's not in the Bible. I believe "These three are one" is more accurate.

    The trinity is three distinct persons in one God. So to get into philosophy for a second. What is a "person"? Isn't it a distinct entity? Someone with a separate mind if you will? So what you end up with is 3 minds of God. 3 different persons in God. I find the idea to be unbelievable. To me the unity of God is really sacred. I would never believe God had more than one mind. Except for in the case of Jesus Christ who being incarnate had a human mind.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    In Catholicism, it is referred to as the "Mystery of the Trinity", so there are not any agreed upon specifics as to how that actually plays out. Therefore, what you post as "Oneness" can fall within that paradigm since we don't know the specifics. It is believed within the Church that only when we reach heaven will we know what that exactly entails. so there's plenty of wiggle room for your hypotheses since our Earthly minds are finite. The 4th century debate over the Trinitarian concept was quite contentious, therefore even the "Mystery..." was a theological compromise of sorts. Those who claim to Oneness don't normally admit to being Trinitarians, which is understandable because they take one position on this, so one can play this both ways.

    To me, I just stay with the issue that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were and are believed to be of God and pretty much just leave it at that.
     
  20. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    He is conceived to be God, but they are in error. He speaks at Proverbs 8 and tells all he was created direct first and last. He became Gods master worker( all other things created through him.) Even at Collosians1:15--The firstborn of all creation= created direct-first and last.)
    Let us( YHVH(Jehovah) and his master worker) make man in our image. Is reality.
     
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