Hockeycowboy said : "
Keep in mind, John 1:1 does not say "In the beginning"...it says "In beginning". (post #564)
Commenting on THIS claim :
Clear said : : 15119"]
Hi @Hockeycowboy : I just wanted to offer a correction to your comment on John 1:1. Since the Greek "Αρχη" ("beginning") in John 1:1 is a noun. It requires either a direct or indirect article and thus it must be translated as either "A beginning" or "THE beginning" in english (as opposed to a verb "beginning" which does not require "a" or "an"). Either the direct or indirect is often simply implied in the greek and that is why you do not see it in John 1:1 in this specific instance. (post #566)
Katzpur, responding to Hockeycowboys original post, said :
That may be the case, but it's only because there were no definite or indefinite articles in ancient Greek." (post #605)
Hockeycowboy responded to Katzpur, saying :
Hello Katzpur, There were definite articles, like ho, as in “hoTheos” (the God) .Just not indefinite ones (a god).(post #608)
Hi
@Katzpur
Languages are really tricky and ideosyncratic sometimes, aren't they?
While Hockycowboys' claim in post 564 is incorrect for the reason I pointed out in post #566, Hockycowboys point regarding the greek definite article inn post #608 IS correct.
I just wanted to make a specific point that makes things a bit more difficult but interesting as it will parallel your underlying beliefs as they existed anciently. While neither Greek nor Hebrew have an indefinite article it is a bit more complicated regarding the phrase "in the beginning" between the greek and Hebrew.
The John 1:1 phrase "In the beginning" HAS to be either an indefinite beginning ("in A beginning") or a definite beginning (in THE beginning"). The word "beginning" in this case is a noun form, thus it is either definite or indefinite.
The hebrew professors as the University of Jerusalem Hebrew language program point out that The Genesis 1:1 phrase "In the beginning" HAS to be an indefinite form since the critical mark under the word for "In" (a hebrew Beyt) is a sheva. Thus the phrase is "In A beginning" or "In Beginning (noun)" but it is not "In THE begiinning" (which would require a patach or chamatz, etc. as a diacritical mark).
The point is that such subtle diffferences change the meanings of the early texts and applies to later interpretations of them. For example, it makes such discussions that Morrea944 and URAVIP2ME less applicable to early Judeo-Christian religion since these words are not talking about a absolute beginning of everything. It affects Oeste's religious interpretation that this verse means "time" had a "beginining" at this specific point indicated by Genesis 1:1s "beginning".
For example, the Oral talmudic traditions tell us that God the Father had created many, many other worlds before this one and thus the specific "beginning" in Genesis 1:1 refers to this specific creation involving this earth and the specific creations applied to this specific time period.
Thus such textual references such as 2nd Enoch where God explains "the devil understood how I wished to create another world" refers to this early Judeo-Christian teaching.
In fact, several modern bible translations are changing the wording of Genesis 1:1 to indicate it is not "in THE beginning" to reflect this point.
You said in post #596 (in response to a poster who theorized nothing existed, and nothing was going on before this earth was created) "I'm sorry, but how exactly do you know that there was nothing "before" the beginning. If God existed -- as He presumably did prior to the creation of our universe -- it is entirely possible that He was doing
something! "In the beginning" refers to the period of time from the creation forward. The Bible is not intended to be an account of the time prior to the creation. All it actually tells us about Jesus existence is that He (i.e. "the Word") existed "in the beginning." (Katzpur, post #596)
You were perfectly correct historically, that there was much in existence and much that was going on before this earth was made.
Kudos to you for this historical point.
Clear
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