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Featured The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    God can be in Jesus and the mediator is the body of Jesus. Since normally we don't separate spirit and body it is logical to say that Jesus is the mediator.
     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that depends. If a person speaks out against the Spirit of God being in Jesus, hasn't he blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Only God can save, so to deny that Jesus is God is to deny that He is the Savior and without a savior the person is not saved.
     
  3. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is not Biblically correct.

    First: I believe God in Jesus is eternal.

    Second: I believe saying that God is the only true god does not eliminate Jesus since they are not two different gods but the same God.

    Third: I believe that is false. I can conceive of no reason why He could not.

    Fourth: I believe of course God is His own God. It could not be otherwise.

    I believe I see those words often when people can't prove what they say.
     
  4. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned something that is very disturbing. You stated... I believe saying that God is the only true god does not eliminate Jesus since they are not two different gods but the same God. Most trinitarians are taught that in their church. But Just wanted to mention a few things. First of all, God and Jesus are not the same person or the same God. They are the same in will and purpose. Jesus is not God, but there are some people that believe that. The Jews believed it, because they thought, like you..., that if your father is a God, then YOU have to be a God also. And that was blasphemy to them because they knew he was a man. Jesus was also saying that he was working together with the father, so because of that, the Jews thought that Jesus was making himself equal with God. They just didnt understand Jesus at all.

    Scripture never tells us that Jesus is a God or God himself. Jesus is a man. He had to be. Scripture tells us that Jesus was like us. The messiah had to be, because he had to overcome sin or sin in the flesh. If he was a God, that would not even matter to him.

    Plus, scripture tells us that God was Jesus's God and father. Why is Jesus called, not only the son of God, but, the son of David and the son of man.?

    Look at
    Deut 18v18+ 2 Sam 7 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
    16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

    Look at
    Heb 2, For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Plus, why would you really want to believe that Jesus is God anyhow...... doesnt make sense, does it......
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the scriptural evidence is that Jesus is God in the flesh.

    I can't imagine what you are talking about. I believe everything matters to God.

    I believe it is because He is.

    If it were only a man who died for me then I still would have no assurance that God loved me or forgave my sin. God by doing so in Jesus puts a seal in His blood that He means it when He says it.
     
  6. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I believe the scriptural evidence is that Jesus is God in the flesh.
    Let's see what the bible does say.
    Jesus is the "image" of God.
    Jesus came in the "name of God".
    Jesus is the "word" of God made flesh.
    Can you give me a verse that says that Jesus is God? So are you saying that God "changed" into a man? Not quite sure what your saying here...........

    If it were only a man who died for me then I still would have no assurance that God loved me or forgave my sin.
    Totally not true. I dont even know where you get that from..... Jesus was a man. Scripture tells us that. ..... The only difference from us is that his father was God, yet his mother was a mortal woman, Mary. The messiah had to be a man and not a God. The messiah had to overcome sin and temptation. And with his Father's help, he did it. Jesus was the firstfruits and we are to follow. And we do have assurance that God still loves us. We now also have forgiveness of sins by mean of our Lord. We can now be baptized, our sins are forgiven that way too. And we can pray to our heavenly father for forgiveness.
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Why stop reading at John 10:30 when at John 10:36 Jesus tells the truth that he is the Son of God.
    Why stop reading at John 14:8-9 when at John 14:28 Jesus says his Father is greater than Jesus.
    Yes, in the beginning was pre-human Jesus.
    Psalms 90:2 informs us that God was ' before ' the beginning
    So, Jesus was ' in ' the beginning but Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was before the beginning.
    John writes at Revelation 3:14 that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by his God.

    KJV omitted the letter 'a' at John 1 but uses the inserted letter 'a' at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B although the same Greek grammar rule applies in both verses.

    John wrote for us that Nathanael thinks Jesus is the Son at John 1:49
    John wrote for us that Peter, as spokesman for the twelve, that Jesus is the Son at John 6:68-69
    John wrote for us that Jesus says his Father is greater than all at John 10:29
    So, at John 10:30 saying he and his Father are one is the same sense as John 17:11; John 17:21-23
    They all are one in -> unity, goal, purpose, co-operation, belief, will, harmony, objective.....
    John wrote for us that Martha believes Jesus is the Son at John 11:27
    John concludes chapter 20 by saying that he 'John' believes Jesus to be the Son at John 20:31
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    So, because Jesus is the Son then He can't be God also? That's a pretty weak argument.
     
  9. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you feel that Jesus has to be God? Just curious....
     
  10. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    Didn't he have to be God in some way, unless you are just going to disregard many scriptures such as the following?

    1. Isaiah 9:6 foretold that the son to be born would be called the mighty God and the everlasting Father.

    2. How could he claim to be the root of David if he was just a man? Revelation 22:16

    3. How could he be before Abraham when that body hadn't been born yet? John 8:56-59

    4. Who was he referring to when he said if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins? John 8:24

    5. If he was just a man, how did he create all things? Colossians 1:14-16

    6. Unless he was God manifest in the flesh, how could he claim to be the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last? - Revelation 22:12-13 When it is clear that the Almighty is the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last. Revelation 1:8 (YHWH had said in the O.T. that he was the first and the last. Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 41:4 and Isaiah 48:12 )

    7. Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and My God. John 20:28

    8. YHWH said in Zechariah 12:9-10 - and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...

    9. YHWH said beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:11

    10. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, o God, is forever and ever... Hebrews 1:8-9

    11. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3
    say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Isaiah 40;9
    Then when you get to the NT - the voice turns out to be John the Baptist. Matthew 3:1-3 John prepared the way for the Messiah. Doesn't that mean the Messiah had to be our God YHWH manifest in the flesh?
     
    #510 TrueBeliever37, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The entirety of the scriptures.
     
  12. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    1. Isaiah 9:6 foretold that the son to be born would be called the mighty God and the everlasting Father.
    Yes, that's correct. But it's not saying that he's would be or is GOD. "The mighty God" or mighty El (in Hebrew). The power of God. Remember that Jesus was "given" all authority and power by His Heavenly Father.

    2. How could he claim to be the root of David if he was just a man? Revelation 22:16
    You just answered your own question. Jesus was a man, he was the root of David. Read 2 Sam 7. What was David told?

    3. How could he be before Abraham when that body hadn't been born yet? John 8:56-59
    Jesus is not saying that he was before Abraham. Jesus did not pre-exist. Trinitarians say that. He was telling them that Abraham knew about the coming Messiah and about the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. And he saw that day and was glad. It was something that Abraham was looking forward too. Same with us in our day. The gospel was preached before Abraham. Jesus is part of the Gospel. Jesus was before Abraham, in the Gospel.....

    4. Who was he referring to when he said if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins? John 8:24
    Yes, that's correct. To everlasting eternal life, Jesus is the way. If you dont believe in God's son, there will be no salvation. That verse is correct, but it doesnt make Jesus God.

    5. If he was just a man, how did he create all things? Colossians 1:14-16
    Jesus didnt create all things. God did. God created all things with his Son in mind. Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world. God already knew his son, like us before he was even born.

    6. Unless he was God manifest in the flesh, how could he claim to be the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last? - Revelation 22:12-13 When it is clear that the Almighty is the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last. Revelation 1:8 (YHWH had said in the O.T. that he was the first and the last. Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 41:4 and Isaiah 48:12 )
    God is working through his son. The son if not the father. Jesus bare's God name just like us when we get baptised.

    7. Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and My God. John 20:28
    In the "English" bible yes. But he's saying that you are my Lord and Elohim. Thomas is not calling Jesus God or believes in a triune God.

    8. YHWH said in Zechariah 12:9-10 - and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced...
    Yes, Jesus is representing his father. Just like the angels too. Jesus even says that he has come in the "name of the Father". Jesus is not God. The Pharasees thought that, but Jesus put them in their place.

    9. YHWH said beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:11
    In the OT that is true. Jesus wasnt born yet. God is the saviour, but now He gives all power and authority to his son.

    10. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, o God, is forever and ever... Hebrews 1:8-9
    Jesus bares God's name in authority and power. Also note in John 10 "Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods,
    unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

    So Jesus is telling them that why do you have a problem with me saying that I am the son of God, when your father's were called God or God's . (Elohim). They were called Gods or God because they were the ones the brought the world of God to the people. The Judges and the Levi priests were called that too. Even Moses was told that God wanted him to be God to Pharaoh.


    11. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3
    It looks like your trying to make the bible into a trinitarian bible. Not really sure why your doing that. Do you know what that verse is about?

    Then when you get to the NT - the voice turns out to be John the Baptist. Matthew 3:1-3 John prepared the way for the Messiah. Doesn't that mean the Messiah had to be our God YHWH manifest in the flesh?
    You mean incarnated as you people would say?.... No, it's the word of God made flesh. God did not change into a man. Everything about God is in his son. He is the "image" of his Father. God is working though his son..... Jesus is not God.

    Why do you want Jesus to be God if he is the son of God? The image of God. Let the bible speak for it's self.
     
  13. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    I underlined my replies above.
     
  14. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    2. Isaiah 11 1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:"
    10 "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

    Scripture tells us that he is the offspring and root. Why would you want to change that? And that makes him God?

    2 Sam 7 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
    16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."

    Listen to these words of 2 Sam 7. Do you really think that David thought that Jesus was God and pre-exisited? No, of course not. Then why you?

    Deut 18. Same with Moses. These were a future prophecy about a "coming Messiah". Nothing pre-existed here.

    5. Yes God created all things, but the NT is letting us know here in Colossians 1:14-16 that the Messiah was the same God that had created all things. Because the fulness of the Godhead/Deity was dwelling in him. He was the image or the body that the eternal Spirit took on.
    No, not at all. Colossians is not saying that Jesus created everything. Read about the Creation in Psalms. Why are you saying the the fullness of the Godhead/Deity was dwelling in him? Scripture doesnt say that. It says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." And that is absolutely right! All power and authority was "given" to His son. And what is the Godhead? 1 Corin 11 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." There is your Godhead right there. God is higher than Christ. Please dont "add in" words. Too many people do that. With all of the words in the bible, why do we have to make up and add in words. Never understood that.....

    How could Jesus creat things if he wasnt born yet? How can you pre-exist before you were born?

    7. Elohim is the Hebrew word that is translated into English as God. So he is calling him God. (I know he didn't believe in a triune God - and neither do I) Thomas just realized that it was YHWH dwelling in that body. Not another God, but the one and only God dwelling in a fleshly body.
    Then who was Jesus then? Why call this body that YHWH was in called another name other than YHWH. Elohim can mean 3 different things. El, Eloah, or Elohim. The translators wrote it in as God. GOD is the Yahweh name. But remember that Jesus bares the Yahweh name too. But he is not GOD himself. "I have come in my father's name." Plus we have to remember that God was always working through his son. 2 Cor 5

    8. YHWH is letting us know that he would be pierced. Further proof that he was the one that took on flesh and shed his blood for man's sins.
    Not at all. This is God manifestation! YHWH was not pierced, but his son was. But it was like God was being pierce because Jesus was his son. They hurt his son and it was like hurting God, God felt his pain. God loved his son! Our children, dont we feel their pain too at times?

    11. Not sure why you think that since I am not trinitarian by any means. YHWH was going to come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. (i.e. Jerusalem) Micah 1:3-5 He was going to send a messenger to prepare the way before him. Malachi 3:1 This messenger is the voice in the wilderness foretold about in Isaiah 40:3-9 Then I was explaining how it turned out in the NT below, to show that the voice was John the Baptist, and he prepared the way for the Messiah. So the Messiah had to be YHWH dwelling in flesh.
    The word of God was Jesus in the flesh. Jesus is the word of God manifest in the flesh. But not God himself.
    "For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth." No one can see God and live. God does not come down to earth and phyiscally walk around. He does that through angels and the Lord Jesus Christ. God manifestation. In the OT, alot of times it does say that but we find out, by reading on, that it is angels representing God.

    When you say that it was Yahweh dwelling in the flesh, are you talking about incarnation?
     
  15. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Active Member

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    Your Question: Scripture tells us that he is the offspring and root. Why would you want to change that? And that makes him God?

    I am not trying to change that. I am asking you to explain in what way he would be the root (signifying before) David. We both know he was the offspring of David. God has always existed, so he was before David, Then he took on a fleshly body that was a descendant of David, which explains how he is the offspring.

    Your Question: Do you really think that David thought that Jesus was God and pre-exisited? No, of course not. Then why you?

    David knew God had promised him to raise up one of his descendants to sit on the throne forever. Not sure of what all details he would know. The body did not pre-exist except in the mind and plans of God, but YHWH has always existed.

    Your Question: How could Jesus creat things if he wasnt born yet? How can you pre-exist before you were born?

    The body did not exist until it was born. The Spirit of God has always existed. God created all things. Then he later took on a body. So the one dwelling in that body had created all things.

    Your Question: Why are you saying the the fullness of the Godhead/Deity was dwelling in him?

    Because the scripture says so. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9 To wit that God was in Messiah reconciling the world unto himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19 He was the image of the invisible God. I and my Father are one. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father that dwells in me does the works. John 14:7-10
    God was dwelling in that body. The flesh itself wasn't God, it was a human body he took on to dwell in and sacrifice for sins. But it was still his body. Once it was sacrificed and resurrected, it became his permanent glorified spiritual body, and he ascended and took the throne.


    Your Question: How could Jesus creat things if he wasnt born yet? How can you pre-exist before you were born?

    The body did not exist until it was born. The Spirit of God has always existed. God created all things. Then he later took on a body. So the one dwelling in that body had created all things.

    Your Question: Then who was Jesus then? Why call this body that YHWH was in called another name other than YHWH.

    To make a distinction between the flesh and the Spirit.

    Your Question: When you say that it was Yahweh dwelling in the flesh, are you talking about incarnation?

    Incarnation is not a scriptural word. Not sure what your definition of the meaning is.
     
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  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this is the best one but there are hundreds of others. John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

    I believe this is not the case. God was His Father by means of creation but in a sense we share that with Him. The difference is that Jesus has for His residing spirit, the Spirit of God which is what God is and we have our own spirits.

    I believe you are in error on both counts. Jesus is not a god He is God in the flesh. The Messiah has to be God according to this prophecy:
    Isa. 9:6......his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    I can't imagine where you get that assurance. Maybe you just wish it were so.

    I believe that suggestion is utter blasphemy. God is still a Spirit in Jesus and can't become flesh.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe none of that is convincing. I believe the Son of God here means that He is a son (of Mary) and of God. However the "of God" is simply a dichotomy of in the flesh and out of it but God is one so there is no actual division of God. Therefore when Jesus says He is one with the Father He is saying that inside the flesh and outside of the flesh is one God.
     
  18. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is the best one but there are hundreds of others. John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
    Jesus is not saying that he is God or saying that he is his father or saying that he is equal with God. . Jesus is one in plan and purpose.

    Jesus subsequently prayed for his disciples, "that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11, 21). These words require that the unity referred to, be also extended to the disciples. Obviously the unity is not that of the powers of the Godhead but unity resulting from sanctification through the word of God. (John 17:14, 17, 18).

    Also in John 17:22, 23: ". . . that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one . . ." Likewise, these words require a relationship between the disciples and Christ which exists between the Son and his Father - a unity, or perfection with the divine purpose.

    Elsewhere in John's gospel, Jesus clearly affirms that he is not co-equal with the Father: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do." (John 5:19); "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30); "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28).

    I believe this is not the case. God was His Father by means of creation but in a sense we share that with Him. The difference is that Jesus has for His residing spirit, the Spirit of God which is what God is and we have our own spirits.
    Well, keep in mind that God's spirit is in us too. Scripture tells us that.

    I believe you are in error on both counts. Jesus is not a god He is God in the flesh. The Messiah has to be God according to this prophecy:
    Isa. 9:6......his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Your miss reading this prophecy. His name "shall be called". This is a future prophecy. Might God is might EL or the power of God. Jesus can also be called God or Elohim also. Jesus was made lower than the angels (Elohim). He also bares God's name too dont forget.

    Look at John 10 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."



    I can't imagine where you get that assurance. Maybe you just wish it were so.
    Not sure what your talking about here...... What assurance.... Everything I get is in scripture.

    I believe that suggestion is utter blasphemy.
    I"m sorry, shouldnt I be saying that to you?......

    God is still a Spirit in Jesus and can't become flesh.
    What?..... But God's spirit is in all of us. Really not sure what your getting at.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Huh? Since God can Not die (Psalms 90:2) because God is from-and-to everlasting, then how can Jesus die and be his own God ____________
    Dead Jesus did Not even resurrect himself - Acts of the Apostles 2:24; 3:15; 13:30,37; Romans 4:24; Colossians 2:12
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Then, using the ^ above ^ reasoning, Jesus is praying that we all be God as per John 17:11B; John 17:21-23.
     
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