1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,574
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness

    Jesus teaches truth-in Every translation on earth--He has a God-his Father--John 20:17, Rev 3:12
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,937
    Ratings:
    +11,603
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Which doesn't differ with what the Trinitarian concept actually states and implies, as it teaches that they are not identical, which is where the "three" comes in with that "three in one" concept.

    To better understand this approach, maybe look up "essence", and the Wikipedia source is good enough to do that. ​
     
  3. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    578
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    Christian
    74X12,
    You are not making any sense. There is a certain contrast between a mighty god, and an Almighty God. You, it seems to me, want to believe what someone has told you and not what the Bible says. I can show you several Scriptures, that make it impossible for Jesus and The Almighty God to be one person.
    First, go to Daniel 7:13,14. Here The Almighty God, Jehovah is sitting on His throne, and Jesus is brought in before Him, 14. And Jesus was given Dominion, Glory and a Kingdom, and Jesus was told the He would have everlasting Dominion over his Kingdom.
    Another place is similar, at Revelation 5:1-10, Here Jesus, the Lamb, came into where The Only True God sat on His Throne and took a book from His Fathers hand. These two places make it impossible for them to be the same person.
    Remember, when Jesus was baptized? His Father spoke to him from, saying, this is my beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased. Jesus did not throw his voice and pretend, because God and Jesus hate deception, Proverbs 6:16-19, 1Peter 2:22. God spoke three times from heaven, to Jesus, Matthew 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28.
    Another point, Jesus said that the Father is greater than he is, John 14:28. Jesus said that the Father is his Father and his God, John 20:17. Jesus said that he lives Because of the Father, John 6:57. Jesus said that there were things that he had no control over, but only the Father, Matthew 20:23, 24:36.
    Another point The would make no sense, if they were the same, Jesus prayed to his Father often, even with tears, Hebrews 5:5-10, also notice that by suffering Jesus learned obedience. Jesus died for our sins— it is impossible for The Almighty God to die, He is Immortal!!! 1Timothy 1:17. Think!!! If God was dead, why did Satan not take over the universe???
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,493
    Ratings:
    +561
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    The one brought near before the Ancient of Days is all of redeemed humanity with Jesus at their head. This was a symbolic vision and the "Son of man" in the vision is not just Jesus but also all those who are members of His body.
    You don't know that God is omnipresent? This was a symbolic vision to show how the Son of man who was fully human and the sacrificial Lamb of God prevailed to loose the seals because He was worthy. He did it for our sakes. He came in human form and died and rose from the dead to save us. Not that He needed saving. Only we need it.
    God is omnipresent and even though He is in heaven yet He is present everywhere and He fills all things. It is no problem for God to be in heaven and yet filling the human body of Jesus.
    Jesus speaking as the Son of course. The Son of man is created and fully human. He became like us in order to save us.
    Of course He prayed like all men must pray. Jesus came to show us the way to please the Father and Jesus came to overcome the world for our sakes. As for God not being able to die. I agree, and that's why He needed a human body to be the Lamb; the one who would die. This is why Jesus came in the flesh so that the flesh could be killed. God Himself cannot be killed, but if He inhabits a human form; then He may experience the death we mortals experience; although of course God Himself cannot directly die.
     
  5. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    578
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    Christian
    74X12,
    Evidently you have never heard of the Theological terms, Anthropomorphisms, or Accommodation. These terms mean that God uses the same terms that we as human beings use, so that we know what God is speaking about when He has something written. You have turned the normal understanding of English to mean anything you want it to, so as you do not believe what God is saying to you.
    What does being a son mean to you? It means that your father begat you, Proverbs 23:22.
    What does it mean to all living beings, when they say that they are praying to their God. Even you know and understand that a person does not pray to his equal, he prays to someone greater, who can help him with his problem. Jesus regularly prayed to his Father, John 17:3, in fact the entire 17th chapter is a prayer from Jesus to his Father. Why did Jesus tell His disciples the the Father was his God, and his Father, John 20:17? Jesus lied???
    The Bible tells us that God resurrected His son, and did not allow his body to deteriorate, Acts 2:29-35. If they are the same person, and are dead, who resurrected them, of Him?? Psalms 16:10,11.
    The Bible, many times says that Jesus is sitting at God’s right hand, and Jehovah The Lord says to my lord, sit at my right hand, Psalms 110:1-4. Same person, why converse with yourself.
    None of the ridiculous arguments, make any sense to a sane person. Remember, for a person to understand God’s word, he MUST have a good heart, Matthew 13:13-15, Mark 7:20-23, Daniel 12:10, Proverbs 28:5, 1Corinthians 2:6-16. The Holy Spirit will help a person who is sincere, but not a person who is just trying to find something in God’s word that he thinks is wrong, even though, it is the lack of understanding that causes the unending silly explanations that people try to fit into God’s pure words, Proverbs 30:5,6.
    Allow the Bible to refute some of what you say! The Almighty God is NOT omnipresent, ubiquitous, or Everywhere. The term circumscription describes God; He has a certain place in space. The Bible tells us that He abides in heaven, Psalms 123:1, that heaven is God’s dwelling place, 1 Kings 8:30, 39, 43, 49.
    As for God being every place, the Bible actually answers this false belief at 1Kings 19:10-12. God is not Everywhere, but of course, you have freewill t believe what you want to believe, no matter what the Bible says.
     
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,493
    Ratings:
    +561
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    If God uses the same terms we use then you should accept the scriptural fact that Jesus is God indeed. As it is written over and over again. But you must deny it. Why?

    • Isaiah 9:6, He is "Mighty God" and "everlasting Father". Colossians 2:8-9 The fullness of the godhead was in Him bodily and you are complete in Him. That means you don't need anyone else.
    • Philippians 2:11 whoever calls Jesus "Lord" does so unto the glory of the Father and not any other. So why do you say I don't glorify the Father? Why do you pretend we need something more than Jesus is? For all of God dwells in Him and there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)
    • John 12:44 Jesus says if you believe in Him; you don't believe in Him but on He who sent Him! So by seeing and believing in Jesus we believe in only the Father. And that's a fact.
    • John 14:8-9 They ask Jesus to show them the Father. HE says "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" It couldn't be more plain than that; yet deniers will find a way to deny it won't they?
    So that's only a few verses that show Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. Yet people refuse to believe it because they lack the faith and they do not believe that God would or could do such a thing. For that I feel sorry for you because you cannot encompass the greatness of God or grasp the beauty of His love that was manifest in Jesus Christ.
    God claims He fills heaven and earth in Jeremiah 23:24. Paul quotes a poet who says "For in Him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28) The Psalmist in Psalm 139 claims that no matter where he goes; God is still there. That is only 3 of the verses that make clear the omnipresence of God.

    The fact is that 1 Kings 19:10-12 does not refute omnipresence. It is just talking about how God talks to us. Because even though God fills all things; that doesn't mean He is speaking to us in everything. An earthquake came but God was not in it. A fire etc. Finally a still small voice and that's how God spoke.
    You must have a good heart? But Jesus called His followers fools and slow of heart to believe all the prophets had spoken of Him. So who has a good heart? Without God you are nothing and without His guidance you're blinder than a bat. Jesus came to give sight to the blind and for those who say "we see" He says "You are still blind" because you don't confess and admit that you are blind so that you can receive your sight. As Jesus is the Anointed One that came to preach deliverance and recovering of the sight to the blind.
    Why does Jesus sit on the Right hand? Answer me that and understand it rather than just saying He sits on the right hand. Understand why and for how long He does so. Then maybe you will understand how Jesus is one with the Father and yet sits on the right hand.

    So, you have to understand that Jesus is encompassing all of humanity and what He does; He does for us all. And so He sits on the right hand that the scripture may be fulfilled saying of mankind: "Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"

    This is why Jesus in human form was given all power in heaven and earth so that He could have the authority as a human being to overcome all humanities enemies and put them under His human feet for our sakes. Because without Him we are nothing and we could never hope to achieve the victory. But He the Lamb has prevailed as it is written of Him. He has loosed the seals and overcome death and the grave. Now He waits patiently sitting on the Right hand of all authority and power expecting that all His enemies will be placed under His feet. Then He will deliver up the kingdom restored, complete, healed and whole to the Father. (1 Corinthians 15)

    That's what Daniel saw when the Son of man came near before the Ancient of days. This was Jesus as the head of all restored humanity which is His body. The very organs and cells of His body which is the temple of the holy Spirit.
    Jesus in the flesh is not equal with God. I think I made that clear. If you still don't get it; maybe you don't want to.
    And ... ?

    Look, we fully realize and comprehend that Jesus is the begotten Son of God. But that doesn't mean He is not God manifest. It is the flesh that is created in the womb of Mary. (Hebrews 10:5)

    The Spirit is eternal. As it is written "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday today and for ever"
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,840
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe the Father does not have a body but Jesus does, so for that reason they do not equate.Jesus is one with the Father. That equates at the spiritual level.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,840
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Christian
    I am a Christian believe what Jesus tells me and He is fine with the Trinity.
     
  9. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Ratings:
    +53
    Religion:
    Gospel of the Kingdom
    :) That was the first place I realized that Jesus is God.

    Here is the second:

    J5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    And the third:

    R1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
    1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
     
  10. OtherSheep

    OtherSheep of Jesus.

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Ratings:
    +53
    Religion:
    Gospel of the Kingdom
    God Jesus calls the Father His God. It's like a family called God, IMHO.
    At His baptism, the Voice from Heaven, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus are all in one place at the same time. And Jesus prays to the Father by the power of the Holy Spirit... as though the Spirit of God is the linkage. If the Father and Jesus were the same, how could Jesus pray to Him, or ask that the cup be taken from Him. He emptied Himself of His Godhood by coming here and becoming able to be killed. The God Killers don't even see themselves for what they truly are... or they think themselves above God, already.
    After the baptism, the Holy Spirit rested on Jesus... I think that means only Jesus had the Holy Spirit from that point in time until Jesus went away... which is why JohnB asks if Jesus was the one they sought... which, before Jesus' baptism, JohnB definitely knew.
    By going away, Jesus made the Spirit of God available to His sheep. When Jesus breathed on His Discipled Apostles, the Spirit of God would then do what Jesus said: remind them of what Jesus said, and explain what Jesus meant.
     
    #330 OtherSheep, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  11. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,574
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness

    He is 100% clear at John 17:1-6,26--He says--The one who sent him= Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--Verse 6= YHVH(Jehovah) 26= YHVH(Jehovah)-- So no Jesus has 0 to do with a non existent trinity.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,937
    Ratings:
    +11,603
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    The Father is not literally the Son nor the Holy Spirit within the Trinitarian concept. In order to understand that concept, one needs to understand the use of the word "essence". IOW, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of the Father within that concept.
     
  13. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,574
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness

    Jesus says he was created-Prov 8-- Paul teaches the same thing-Collosians 1:15--The FIRSTBORN of all creation------- Creation happened long before Jesus came to the earth. See the term all creation. Your teachers and scholars twist it to mislead 2 billion to not enter Gods kingdom.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,937
    Ratings:
    +11,603
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    I wish you would actually read what I wrote as the above doesn't negate what I posted.

    When are you going to start believing in Jesus when he said "judge ye not..."?

    It is so bizarre and blatantly unethical that you actually state that one must supposedly have the same exact politically-correct interpretation as you do or God will condemn them. But I know it's your cult that teaches you this, so I blame them far more than I blame you.

    Jesus taught the "law of love", namely to "love one another as I have loved you", and yet your JW's constantly play the politically-correct card that causes division, which Paul warned the flock not to follow nor to do. But then it appears you don't believe in Paul either.

    Jesus condemned many of the Pharisees who were doing exactly what the JW's teach you to do, namely to impose "teachings made by men" onto others in a hypocritical and self-righteous manner. There is nothing in the scriptures that negates the Trinitarian concept based on "essence", which you seem to not even begin to understand. Why? Probably because your leaders don't want you to understand, which is also why they don't want you to attend any other denomination's services of even read their books, and why they don't want you to get a higher education or study other Christian denominations.
     
  15. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,574
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness


    Heed Jesus warning-John 15:20-21) As well Hallowed be thy name= YHVH(Jehovah) The one Jesus taught was greater than him. BELIEVE JESUS. John 20:17, Rev 3:12
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,937
    Ratings:
    +11,603
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    When one doesn't study, the above is what can happen.

    You actually don't believe in Jesus if you continue to judge people, nor to you believe in Paul because what the JW's do is to sow division that Paul condemned. I believe Jesus, but you have shown over and over again that there are things Jesus taught that you just virtually ignore, much like the "Goats" did in Matthew 25.

    Speaking of which, the Catholic Church strongly teaches and acts out of the Sermon On the Mount that demands we help others, and not just preach. In our area there are many Catholic hospitals, which are required by the Church to take care of all patients in an emergency no matter how poor they may be. We have many Catholic schools that also make it a point to take in the poor. The Catholic Church I attend with my wife takes in the homeless at least one week of the year, which includes feeding and clothing them. We have a large food pantry to help needy families. Not to far away is a Catholic soup kitchen that feeds thousands every week, while the monks in charge take vows of poverty. Etc.

    IOW, we do what the Sermon On the Mount says we are to do, but in conversation with another JW, we know that this is not emphasized with the JW's. With them it's just "talk the talk", not "walk the walk" of what the gospel teaches.

    IOW, being a follower of Jesus is much more than just talking and trying to convert people-- it's a lifestyle based on agape and living within it.
     
  17. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,574
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness


    I have studied Jesus for years. His teachings back the JW teachers=100% fact of reality. You should do this yourself. Every true follower does. The sermon on the mount--You don't even know what he actually taught. Here is a real simple one any can understand as FACT= Matthew 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his ( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness.
    All who do great works and serve a non existent God have lost.
     
  18. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    247
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Scripture
    According to John, anyone who would not confess that Jesus Christ had come in the same flesh as his brethren, was antichrist.

    Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, Heb 2:14

    Therefore, he had to be like his brothers and sisters in every way, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in matters pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17

    For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

    He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and misguided, since he himself is beset by weakness. Heb 5:2

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: …Php 2:7,8

    Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. 1 Cor 15:39

    By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time. 1 John 4:2,3

    Both the RCC and JW's are antichrist sects.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,937
    Ratings:
    +11,603
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Well, since I taught theology for more than three decades, ...

    When are you going to believe esus and not judge others?
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    27,937
    Ratings:
    +11,603
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    And how did you conclude that?
     
Loading...