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Featured The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Machir, son of Manasseh and grandson of Joseph the first of the shepherd kings to rule Egypt, was a military hero, See Joshua 17: 1; who fought many wars in the horse drawn chariots of the land of Egypt.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    There is no mention of Machir using a chariot.
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you need to use logic to make a point. You have not done so. The fact remains that Jesus is God in the flesh.
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    By "fact," do you mean "claim?"
     
  6. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus were God in the flesh, Why did he have to be taught by his Father?( John 5:30) Why only the Fathers will gets achieved? Why did he have to be appointed king,( Dan 7:13-15) when God was already king? Why does Jesus have to hand the kingdom back to his God and Father and subject himself ( 1Corinthians 15:24-28)- And How does God have a God? How can God give Jesus a revelation 1:1- did he say--here me have a revelation--Because in English in Rev 1:1--God is the giver not the receiver.
     
  7. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I have proven it. There are those who relinquish reasoning and disagree but people do hate to lose arguments. It is ego deflating.
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe since Jesus is human as well as God the mind has to be informed by the Spirit. Since God is everywhere it means Jesus knows what is going on in other places besides where His body is.

    I believe, again Jesus is God in a body so everything has to be given to Him since the body did not previously exist. That includes all authority which God is never going to give to anyone other than Himself.
    Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    I believe, again, the Kingdom is immense beyond the reach of a human being but God is everywhere.

    I believe God can consider Himself God if He wishes.

     
  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    And I believe you haven't.

    It can be much more than that who have made a whole religion the centre of their life, predicated on the idea that they're right.
     
  10. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    The argument that Jesus is literally God Almighty himself because of a couple verses that address Jesus as God (and there are a couple such verses) is an uninformed argument. Let us ignore for a second the vast number of verses that contradict the idea that Jesus is literally God, let us ignore that even if Jesus were God himself there are alternative doctrines to the Trinity that are far more logical/comprehensible, and let us ignore the fact that no one in scripture taught or believed the Trinity doctrine. Let's just focus on Jesus being addressed as God.

    Trinitarians act like Jesus being addressed as God is unique, and that the only meaning is that he is literally God himself. However, there is a lot of precedent in scripture for those who are not literally God - but rather God's representatives and people - being addressed as God/god(s).

    God tells Moses he has been made Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron his prophet:

    Exodus 7:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. 2 You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.​

    Often times when "God" is speaking or interacting with people in the OT, it is actually an angel:

    Exodus 3:2-4 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of b]">[b]a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “c]">[c]I must turn aside now and see this d]">[d]marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

    Genesis 32:24-30 Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob’s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but n]">[n]Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place o]">[o]Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my p]">[p]life has been preserved.

    Hosea 12:4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us,

    In fact, all of Israel (whom God says is his firstborn) are referred to as gods:

    Psalms 82:6 I said, “You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

    Matthew 10:34-35 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)

    Therefore, unless you plan to add Moses, Angels, and those to whom the word of God came to the Trinity, it is quite unreasonable to argue that because Jesus is addressed as God in a couple verses that we should therefore interpret it literally. Rather, we should follow the precedent laid down by the usage of the term elsewhere: as God's representative, his mediator, his Son
     
    #290 iam1me, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  11. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that was wonderful!! Well said!

    I dont believe in the trinity too. I think it totally degrades our Creator!!
    If Jesus IS God, then why go through the "father and son" thing. Why role play that. Why cant the bible just say that Jesus is God and came down to earth as God. If they are co-equal and the same, wouldnt that disrespect Jesus to be the son and not the father? Why couldnt Jesus be the father and not the son if..... they are the same.

    Look at Deut 18v18+ What is Moses told about a coming Messiah? Does that sound like a God or a man....
    2 Sam 7 What is David told? does that sound like a God or a man....
    Heb 2 , like many other chapters, tell us that Jesus was like us.

    But I love your point about the angels. God manifestation, right there!! God working "through" the angels. They represent God and do his will.

    If Jesus is God, then why does our Creator have to work "through" his son. 2 Cor 5.

    Unfortuntaly people take John 1 out of context and make the bible a trinitarian bible.
     
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  12. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Yes given by someone greater than he is, just as he taught--The Father is greater than i.
    God owns every iota of creation. no one can give him a thing like that, nor teach him a thing. Nor can they appoint him king.
     
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  13. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    74X12,
    Some of the things you have written show quite a lot of understanding, some of what you wrote is known to a very few, about sin. I cannot understand why you have so much trouble understanding that Jesus is NOT the One True God that Jesus mentioned in prayer, John 17:3.
    You do understand that there are other gods don’t you?? In India many worship 300 million gods. Muslims worship a different god. The only True God that Jesus was speaking about was, The Almighty God, Jehovah, in English.
    At Isaiah 9:6, when speaking about Jesus, he is called a Mighty god, El Gabbohr in Hebrew, but The Almighty God, Jehovah is El Shaddai in Hebrew. There is an infinite difference in power between a Mighty god and The Almighty God.
    At John 1:1, John wrote that The Word, Jesus is a god, but not The Almighty God. There are several Scriptures that mention that Jesus is a god. There are even Scriptures that mention that the men of Israel who were leaders, were also called gods, because they had the lives of the people in their hands, Psalms 82:1,6. These Scriptures are what Jesus was speaking about when the religious leaders accused Jesus of calling himself God, when what he said was that he was the son of God, and that did not make Jesus The God, John 10:30-36. When the Bible speaks about One True God, it is always speaking about Jehovah God, The Almighty!!! Agape!!!
     
  14. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the one true God veiled in human form. So, we always keep in mind the duality of Christ's nature. Both human and God. Created and uncreated. Basically, the Almighty God inhabiting the mortal body of a Son of Adam.

    Our DNA is literally descended from Adam and so is given to us from Adam. Because Adam the "son of God" sinned; he was sentenced to death. Jesus is the Great Light that the people in Galilee of the nations saw. The people that were living in the land of the "shadow of death". (Isaiah chapter 9) Because the whole world is sentenced to death so this life is the "valley of the shadow of death" we all must pass through. (Psalm 23) Jesus came to bring Life from the grave. So we still go through that valley, but thanks to Him we "fear no evil".

    This is the Word that John is speaking of in the gospel of John chapter 1. The "Word of Life" as we read it in 1st John chapter 1. This is the Word "Let there be Light" (Genesis 1:3) that was in the beginning with God. He was silent until He died and that is when He was broken; or in other words; the silence was broken. So there could be Life.

    Why do I know this Word is in fact one with God? Because John also says God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. So when God spoke "Let there be Light" was not creating Light; but shining His own Light into the darkened world. Because He would make all things in the Light. The Light of 6 days that were not solar days.
    True. There are many called gods as Paul said. But, as Paul said for us(the true church) there can only be one God the Father. So, this excludes (for us) all other possible gods. They are not our gods nor will they ever be. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

    So the clear implication of that is that Jesus must be one with the Father. Because He is called a "God" more than once as you point out. Therefore, how can the church have more than one God? (1 Corinthians 8:6) It cannot.
    Of course, however just because someone is called "mighty" doesn't mean they cannot also be called "Almighty". As even Jesus Himself claims that "All power is given to me in heaven and on earth". (Matthew 28:18) and Paul says that He ascended far above all heavens (which implies He is the most High God) and He did so to "fill all things". Which implies He is one with the Omniscient and omnipresent God. (Ephesians 4:10)

    And why does the Psalmist say that God has gone up with a shout? (Psalm 47:5)

    When does God do that?
    Well, that remains to be proven on your part. I believe the opposite. As I think that John realized he was speaking of a great mystery. So he had to clarify that the "Word was God" so no one would be confused. Unfortunately, people are still confused who don't understand the mystery.

    No offense, that's just what I believe.
    or just God. You have to insert the "a". Admittedly, grammatically it could be read both ways. So we have to look at context to find out what the author intended.
    Well, certainly there was a counsel of the gods. But as stated before, for us there is but one God the Father. That means Jesus cannot be called a (little g) "god" for us. We may only have one God the Father.
    Well, He was certainly proving that they did not know the scriptures well enough to judge Him of anything. But, I don't believe He was saying He was a (lowercase) "god".

    In verse 39, it says again they sought to arrest Him. So, in their opinion He was still blaspheming/stealing glory due to God alone.
    Well, we agree on that.
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it was well said but unfortunately not very reasonable.

    I believe the JW's do that but Trinitarians take it in context and you should know that.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe "someone" in this case is a misnomer. It would be like saying there are two Gods and the Bible is quite clear there is only one.

    I believe that is a nice try but the fact is that giving in this instance is not between two people but between Spirit and mind. It is true the mind is not God but the Spirit is.
     
  17. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    No matter what, It is error putting a capitol G - God in the last line of John 1:1--it makes the second line read in plain trinity English--and God was with God-- that is impossible. As well giving worship to a mortal Jesus = error to deceive. Not to mention, There is no-- I am that I am in the Hebrew OT language. I will be what I will be is correct. Trinity translations deceive.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    1. Onager - Wikipedia
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager
      The onager is a member of the subgenus Asinus, belonging to the genus Equus and is classified under the family Equidae.The species was described and given its binomial name Equus hemionus by German zoologist Peter Simon Pallas in 1775.. The Asiatic wild ***, among Old World equids, existed for more than 4 million years. The oldest divergence of Equus was the onager followed by the zebras and ...

    2. Onager | Definition of Onager by Merriam-Webster
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onager
      Onager definition is - an Asian wild *** (Equus hemionus onager synonym E. onager) that usually has a broad dorsal stripe and is related to the kiang.

    3. Onager - definition of onager by The Free Dictionary
      https://www.thefreedictionary.com/onager
      on·a·ger (ŏn′ə-jər) n. 1. A wild *** (Equus hemionus) of Asia, having an erect mane, a light brown coat, and a dark stripe along the back. 2. An ancient and medieval catapult, often employing a wooden arm with a short sling. [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, wild ***, from Greek onagros : onos, ***; see asinine + agrios, wild; see ...
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Member

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    "The Word was with God and the Word was God."

    That is difficult to understand unless we understand God. God is a Spirit but He also has a Spirit. His Spirit is what makes Him God. And God can put His Spirit upon another(Jesus) so that Jesus can do the same works God does.
    All things were made by God, and when He puts His unlimited, unmeasurable Spirit the proceeds from Him upon His son then the son is attributed the all things that were made by God.
     
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