The Good thief on the cross.. Ended up in a Garden!

[Dogknox20]

I have come across this (below) ..... thus I ask about Paradise VS the Kingdom!
Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Clearly from the verse (above) Paradise is a Garden! The Thief ended up in a GARDEN! The tree of life is in a GARDEN!
Many people point out: The Thief was NOT baptized he died before Pentecost!

John the Baptist also died before he could be baptized by the Church; he also died before Pentecost!
LOOK.. Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Clearly.. If the Good Thief made it into Paradise then John the Baptist did also: No one NOT Baptized dyeing before Pentecost was greater then John. John was born of woman just as the Good thief but nether were born of Bride and Groom, neither were Baptized by the EMPOWERED Church! least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
John did not make into the Throne room clearly John did not make it into the KINGDOM.. Like the Good Thief just into Paradise!

I asked a preacher about the "Un-baptized going to Paradise" against the "Baptized ending up in the Kingdom" or "Throne room of God", the answer I got was about "The Abode of the Dead"!? My question was not answered!
From the above verses I have a question..
QUESTION would all the Unbaptized people not knowing of God/Jesus also end up in Paradise like John the Baptist and the Good thief?
Least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John!
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

I see that John' baptism removed sins but it did not send the Holy Spirit! (below)

Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This is the Baptism of the empowered Church.. Forgiveness of sins PLUS the Holy Spirit!
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[metis]

It is not my role to judge on such matters.

 

[Deeje]

I asked a preacher about the "Un-baptized going to Paradise" against the "Baptized ending up in the Kingdom" or "Throne room of God", the answer I got was about "The Abode of the Dead"!? My question was not answered!

You cannot answer this question if you believe that the dead are still living in another realm. The ancient Jews had no such belief. The “abode of the dead” is nothing more than the common grave.(Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
There is no immortal soul that leaves the body at death. Death is the opposite of life as God told Adam. (Genesis 3:19)...returning to the dust.

From the above verses I have a question..
QUESTION would all the Unbaptized people not knowing of God/Jesus also end up in Paradise like John the Baptist and the Good thief?
Least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John!
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

I see that John' baptism removed sins but it did not send the Holy Spirit! (below)

Exactly....

Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This is the Baptism of the empowered Church.. Forgiveness of sins PLUS the Holy Spirit!
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Congratulations! You have discerned the obvious difference between “paradise” and “heaven”.

When the thief who was executed alongside Jesus asked to be remembered when he came into his kingdom, Jesus did not promise him a place in heaven, because only those taken into the “new covenant” will rule with Jesus in heaven. These alone are baptized in water as well as the holy spirit.

Those who will “be with [Jesus] in paradise” are those who will be subjects of his kingdom here on earth. Jesus promised to resurrect all who were in their graves, calling both the righteous and the unrighteousness, out of the same place. (John 5:28-29) Their graves are here on earth.

John the Baptist, like all of God’s pre-Christian servants...(those who died before Jesus, and who did not receive an anointing as participants or parties of the new covenant) will have a role here on earth.....the place where God put humankind in the first place.

Those who have any role as beneficiaries of the new covenant will be grateful to have a part in the earthly realm of God’s Kingdom. It will be a time when all these ones will experience its blessings.....

Revelation 21:2-4...
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Sounds good to me.....God has promised to bring us back to paradise.....the one we lost will be restored, thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.....because God always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

 

[John1.12]

I have come across this (below) ..... thus I ask about Paradise VS the Kingdom!
Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Clearly from the verse (above) Paradise is a Garden! The Thief ended up in a GARDEN! The tree of life is in a GARDEN!
Many people point out: The Thief was NOT baptized he died before Pentecost!

John the Baptist also died before he could be baptized by the Church; he also died before Pentecost!
LOOK.. Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Clearly.. If the Good Thief made it into Paradise then John the Baptist did also: No one NOT Baptized dyeing before Pentecost was greater then John. John was born of woman just as the Good thief but nether were born of Bride and Groom, neither were Baptized by the EMPOWERED Church! least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
John did not make into the Throne room clearly John did not make it into the KINGDOM.. Like the Good Thief just into Paradise!

I asked a preacher about the "Un-baptized going to Paradise" against the "Baptized ending up in the Kingdom" or "Throne room of God", the answer I got was about "The Abode of the Dead"!? My question was not answered!
From the above verses I have a question..
QUESTION would all the Unbaptized people not knowing of God/Jesus also end up in Paradise like John the Baptist and the Good thief?
Least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John!
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

I see that John' baptism removed sins but it did not send the Holy Spirit! (below)

Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This is the Baptism of the empowered Church.. Forgiveness of sins PLUS the Holy Spirit!
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2.38 is to Israel as it clearly says .Why would you use Acts 2.38 today ? No one did in the bible after Acts ..

 

[Dogknox20]

You cannot answer this question if you believe that the dead are still living in another realm. The ancient Jews had no such belief. The “abode of the dead” is nothing more than the common grave.(Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
There is no immortal soul that leaves the body at death. Death is the opposite of life as God told Adam. (Genesis 3:19)...returning to the dust.

** I reply.. You are wrong! The dead are alive in heaven!
1 Samuel 28:11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

 

[Dogknox20]

Acts 2.38 is to Israel as it clearly says .Why would you use Acts 2.38 today ? No one did in the bible after Acts ..

How are you...
I reply.. Scriptures please? Post scriptures that say Acts 2.38 is to Israel

Peter ADDED 3000 people to the body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost!
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

3000 Jews became Christians the first day of Pentecost!

 

[Dogknox20]

Can't enter the KINGDOM unless born again of Water & Spirit!
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Not water ALONE!
Not Spirit ALONE!

 

[John1.12]

How are you...
I reply.. Scriptures please? Post scriptures that say Acts 2.38 is to Israel

Peter ADDED 3000 people to the body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost!
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

3000 Jews became Christians the first day of Pentecost!

Acts 2
22¶Ye men of Israel , hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you , as ye yourselves also know:

 

[Deeje]

** I reply.. You are wrong! The dead are alive in heaven!

If you knew what the Bible teaches then you would know that no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) Look it up.

1 Samuel 28:11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

If you knew the background to this passage you would see that it wasn't Samuel whom the woman contacted, but a demon impersonating him. There are no such things as ghosts and if the living prophets would not communicate with Saul, then a dead prophet was certainly not going to.

Saul did not see or hear the demon, but only the woman who was practicing divination...something that the Bible condemns. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) You need to keep up....

 

[metis]

Just for the record, according to the Tanakh, Elijah and Enoch were assumed into heaven on a chariot of fire.

 

[Dogknox20]

Acts 2
22¶Ye men of Israel , hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you , as ye yourselves also know:

**Scriptures please? Post scriptures that say Acts 2.38 is to Israel

I reply: YUP all Christians at the start of the Church were Jews...So What?. The Jews wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised Paul corrected it accepted the Christians into the Holy Church none circumcised!
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—

Clearly Paul is accepting all into the Church Jew and Gentile! Does not mean Jews ONLY at the start!

 

[John1.12]

**Scriptures please? Post scriptures that say Acts 2.38 is to Israel

I reply: YUP all Christians at the start of the Church were Jews...So What?. The Jews wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised Paul corrected it accepted the Christians into the Holy Church none circumcised!
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—

Clearly Paul is accepting all into the Church Jew and Gentile! Does not mean Jews ONLY at the start!

The reason why we don't see Baptism as necessary to recieve the Holy Spirit being taught to anyone, after Peter realises Gentiles are included , ( 10 years later ,after Acts 2 ) is because THAT command was specifically to ISRAEL . They had to be baptised in order to receive the Holy spirit. Thats why you don't see anything like Acts 2.38 being taught in the epistles.

 

[metis]

Mark.16[16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1Cor.12[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[Bree]

I have come across this (below) ..... thus I ask about Paradise VS the Kingdom!
Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

From the above verses I have a question..
QUESTION would all the Unbaptized people not knowing of God/Jesus also end up in Paradise like John the Baptist and the Good thief?
Least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John!
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit..

Well said, you've answered your own question.

The bible prior to the christian scriptures interestingly speaks nothing of going to heaven. It only speaks of dying and being raised in the resurrection at a later time.

After Christ we see the idea of a heavenly calling.

Resurrection of the dead was a theme of Christs teaching and this is why he could tell the criminal who died beside him 'truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise'
The earthly paradise will always be on earth and the majority of mankind (both good and bad such as the criminal who died beside Jesus) will be resurrected into that earthly paradise
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice+ 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

The kingdom is heavenly and a very small number of Jesus 'brothers' will go there to rule as kings with Christ.
Rev 14:1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb + standing on Mount Zion,+ and with him 144,000 + who have his name and the name of his Father + written on their foreheads.

 

[metis]

The bible prior to the christian scriptures interestingly speaks nothing of going to heaven. It only speaks of dying and being raised in the resurrection at a later time.

It was a belief amongst a great many Jews, probably a majority of them, at least a century before Jesus' time. "Job" is the oldest biblical book that we know of in terms of its writing, and at the end of Job there's at least the hint of something after death.

Also, Elijah and Enoch were assumed into heaven going there on a "flaming chariot".

 

[Left Coast]

***MOVED TO RELIGIOUS DEBATES***

 

[Dogknox20]

Well said, you've answered your own question.

The bible prior to the christian scriptures interestingly speaks nothing of going to heaven. It only speaks of dying and being raised in the resurrection at a later time.

After Christ we see the idea of a heavenly calling.

Resurrection of the dead was a theme of Christs teaching and this is why he could tell the criminal who died beside him 'truly i tell you today, you will be with me in paradise'
The earthly paradise will always be on earth and the majority of mankind (both good and bad such as the criminal who died beside Jesus) will be resurrected into that earthly paradise
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice+ 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

The kingdom is heavenly and a very small number of Jesus 'brothers' will go there to rule as kings with Christ.
Rev 14:1 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb + standing on Mount Zion,+ and with him 144,000 + who have his name and the name of his Father + written on their foreheads.

.
Hello Bree I point out Satan fell to the earth!
Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Earth is then destroyed with fire!

Bree.. Those people immersed into Christ are caught up with the dead and taken away from the destroyed earth. Satan and all souls not immersed into Jesus will stay forever on earth!
NOTE: The 144000 are literally only Jewish male virgins! QUESTION: Are the JW's elders married?! Did they have children? The 144,000 then can't be any JW elder they must have lied to say different!
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Bree Clearly verse #5 (above) points to the lies twists of the JW's.. Is the WTS blameless????
The WTS falsely predicted the following:
1889: “The ‘battle of the great day of God almighty’ (Rev. 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . ” (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101).

1891: “With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy” (Studies, Vol. 3, 153).

1894: “The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble” (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677).

1916: “The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ’s reign began in 1873” (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword).

1918: “Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89).

1923: “1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge” (WT, 4-1-1923, 106).

1925: “The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year” (WT, 1-1-1925, 3).

1939: “The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead” (Salvation, 361).

1941: “Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years” (Children, 10).

1946: “Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972” (They Have Found a Faith, 44).

1968: “The end of the six thousand years of man’s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date” (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).
Bree I remember this prediction (above) in 1968 I was a teenager the JWs prediction was broadcast over the television!

Besides false prophecies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:

The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31).

“There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).
“We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . ” (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). “Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil” (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).

“Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).

 

[Dogknox20]

The reason why we don't see Baptism as necessary to recieve the Holy Spirit being taught to anyone, after Peter realises Gentiles are included , ( 10 years later ,after Acts 2 ) is because THAT command was specifically to ISRAEL . They had to be baptised in order to receive the Holy spirit. Thats why you don't see anything like Acts 2.38 being taught in the epistles.

Barry Johnson Scriptures: Jesus commissioned is Church with all of God' authority to Make disciples BAPTIZING!
Baptizing make disciples of all nations!
Johns baptism forgave sins!
The baptism of the impowered Church from Pentecost onward removes sins & sends the Holy Spirit as a gift from God! Nothing in scriptures about about 10 years after Acts 2!
Making disciples of ALL NATIONS takes more then ten years!
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing

 

[John1.12]

Barry Johnson Scriptures: Jesus commissioned is Church with all of God' authority to Make disciples BAPTIZING!
Baptizing make disciples of all nations!
Johns baptism forgave sins!
The baptism of the impowered Church from Pentecost onward removes sins & sends the Holy Spirit as a gift from God! Nothing in scriptures about about 10 years after Acts 2!
Making disciples of ALL NATIONS takes more then ten years!
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing

Yes but what do the diciples do ? They don't preach to anyone but Jews until after Acts 7 . They preach everywhere ,but not to everyone. Thats why God has to give the vision to Peter the vision about Cornelius.The great commission takes inertia . Read Acts with this in mind .

 

[Dogknox20]

Yes but what do the diciples do ? They don't preach to anyone but Jews until after Acts 7 . They preach everywhere ,but not to everyone. Thats why God has to give the vision to Peter the vision about Cornelius.The great commission takes inertia . Read Acts with this in mind .

.
The Apostles are Jews, Jesus is a Jew: the Church Jesus established was commissioned by Jesus with the Apostles in charge to care for it! The Apostles started with those around them and then expanded outward! The same message was preached to all the world!
The message preached is universal ... "Get yourself IMMERSED into the body of Jesus by the waters of Baptism thus receiving; God the Holy Spirit as a GIFT"!

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”