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Featured The Good, the Bad and God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by blü 2, May 29, 2020.

  1. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    When I asked you to show me how God ordered mass rape - you just went silent.
    Until now you don't have an answer because you wanted to assume something that is simply not there. You simply froze and tried to weasel out by diverting attention. You chose to be quiet, demurrer - so to speak.
    When that happens, I know my opponent has a hard time defending his charges.

    [​IMG]

    How can I be very emotional tying on my keyboard?
    Its part of the game - even in basketball
    But here, we are less physical.

    [​IMG]



    When the Bible records massacre, battle gore and sorts, what is written is written.
    I can show it and I could provide pictures of it.

    upload_2020-6-7_20-44-1.jpeg

    Personally I won't carry a sword and start it swinging at people


    With God On Our Side
    Bob Dylan

    Oh my name it ain't nothin'
    My age it means less
    The country I come from
    Is called the Midwest
    I was taught and brought up there
    The laws to abide
    And that land that I live in
    Has God on its side
    Oh, the history books tell it
    They tell it so well
    The cavalries charged
    The Indians fell
    The cavalries charged
    The Indians died
    Oh, the country was young
    With God on its side
    The Spanish-American
    War had its day
    And the Civil War, too
    Was soon laid away
    And the names of the heroes
    I was made to memorize
    With guns in their hands
    And God on their side
    The First World War, boys
    It came and it went
    The reason for fighting
    I never did get
    But I learned to accept it
    Accept it with pride
    For you don't count the dead
    When God's on your side
    The Second World War
    Came to an end
    We forgave…




    Great song but are Americans really with God on their side?
    Really?

    What I understand is before Jesus Christ was born, Israel had God on their side.
    But it is not continuous, there are some periods of time when God hid his face because Israel sinned.
    So it was an off and on relationship.

    After Jesus Christ was born, died and raised by God to life to be taken up to heaven, it was a different thing.
    It was a new covenant - it is no longer the nation of Israel but the Church founded by Jesus Christ which had God on their side. The church disappeared due to apostasy. It disappeared for a long time until the ends of the earth came and the reemergence of the church.

    So America had God on their side?
    [​IMG]
    Hard to tell...

    Numbers 31:9-17 Massacres. My first post on your topic, I have mentioned that Israel is a rag tag nation with a rag tag army. They came out of Egypt as free slaves as their former skill set. Killing is not one of them. They had to be warriors in a short span of time to drive away 7 kingdoms occupying the land which God gave to Abraham. Basically these 7 kingdoms are SQUATTERS when they saw Jacob and his sons flee to Egypt because of the famine, opportunity presented itself for them to squat.

    Squatting is the action of occupying an abandoned or unoccupied area of land or a building, usually residential, that the squatter does not own, rent or otherwise have lawful permission to use. Author Robert Neuwirth suggested in 2004 that there were one billion squatters globally. Wikipedia

    These are kingdoms, not your ordinary run in the mill indigent squatters. They have armies, trained in the art of war and military tactics. Some of them are giants. What was the directive given by God to the Israelites?

    Deuteronomy 7 New International Version (NIV)

    When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga$hite$, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. But

    those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;
    he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.

    Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

    If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land—your grain, new wine and olive oil—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor will any of your livestock be without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. You must destroy all the peoples the Lord your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you.
    upload_2020-6-7_21-20-56.jpeg upload_2020-6-7_21-22-50.jpeg
    You may say to yourselves, “These nations are stronger than we are. How can we drive them out?” But do not be afraid of them; remember well what the Lord your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt. You saw with your own eyes the great trials, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and outstretched arm, with which the Lord your God brought you out. The Lord your God will do the same to all the peoples you now fear. Moreover, the Lord your God will send the hornet among them until even the survivors who hide from you have perished. Do not be terrified by them, for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a great and awesome God. The Lord your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you. But the Lord your God will deliver them over to you, throwing them into great confusion until they are destroyed. He will give their kings into your hand, and you will wipe out their names from under heaven. No one will be able to stand up against you; you will destroy them. The images of their gods you are to burn in the fire. Do not covet the silver and gold on them, and do not take it for yourselves, or you will be ensnared by it, for it is detestable to the Lord your God. Do not bring a detestable thing into your house or you, like it, will be set apart for destruction. Regard it as vile and utterly detest it, for it is set apart for destruction.

    [​IMG]

    On Massacres - Is there a convention. law or set of rules set agreed to by the warring parties then that these acts are prohibited in war and are considered crimes against humanity?

    Massacre - Wikipedia

    Do you think computer hacking during the time of Israelites is a crime?
    Do you think jay walking during the time of the Israelites is a punishable offense?
    Do you think that cigarette smoking and vaping in public during the time of the Israelites is breaking an ordinance?
    Do you think that a person should be jailed even there is no law condemning that person?

    Nullum crimen sine lege is latin for "no crime without law."
    Are you familiar with that?
    Nulla poena sine lege - Wikipedia


    There is to be no penalty without previous law.
    This prohibits ex post facto laws, and the retroactive application of criminal law.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You have an unbelievably convenient memory. There is one explanation and I gave it to you several times.

    As for unanswered questions, I asked if you thought copulation had taken place and if so whether you thought they were all consensual.

    Not a peep out of you.

    But I suppose you don't remember that either.
     
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  3. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I have noted your explanation, it did not hold water either.
    You assumed and would want to create a story despite your story wasn't written in the Bible.
    It was like - what would happen if the Israelite takes a Midianite woman, do you think rape will not happen?
    That would only come from a dirty mind. A worst assumption.
    So I hollered again - prove it and you went blank - probably you realized that your assumption is just a figment of your imagination.

    Call it out again and again - you were like....

    [​IMG]
     
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Now who's moving the goalposts? You said there'd been no explanation.
    I'd normally assume that such an untenable statement was a joke. However, by now I know better.
    A woman? These are all the virgins in the massacred population, enough to be 'shared out among yourselves' by the winning army.]
    No, it would come from anyone with even the vaguest familiarity with history and with war.

    And in the OP I gave 14 instances of atrocities attributed to God. You're the one who made this thread all about rape. And when answered you went on about rape. And when answered again you went on about rape. And here you are still going on about rape and trying to blame me for it.

    Whereas I've continually pointed to your indifference to invasive war, support for slavery, massacre of populations, human sacrifice (or did you mention that too once?), religious intolerance, and so on through the rest of the OP list. They're only worth a perfunctory mumble from you, or no reply at all ─ if God does those things, that's all cool with you.

    I replied, repeated and repeated. Only then did I stop repeating.

    And you MUST have read it, because you repeated called me a liar for it ─ no, belay that, I 'm forgetting to take your hysteria into account.,


    Oh, and you also said my replies gave you a good chuckle, but here you are, spitting and fuming and whining all over again. So it looks like your 'good chuckle' was an untrue report, merely a belittling tactic against what you couldn't and can't debate.


    Oh, and you forgot to tell me whether copulations took place and whether they were all consensual. (Okay, I know you didn't forget, you ducked instead ─ just teasing.)
     
    #224 blü 2, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    You made a rather slanderous accusation for which @MJFlores has continuously taken you to task, and this rightfully so. Both @1213 and @MJFlores have decimated your argument but you continuously insisted on inserting a rape narrative that was simply not there.

    More on that later. Right now, let's address some other points:

    So now, not only does the Spirit turn people into robots, it does this because it's influence is unwarranted or inappropriate!

    Where do you get this nonsense from? You appear to be making this stuff up as you go along without any attempt at meaningful exegesis.

    It seems to me this is simply argument arguendo, or "argument for the sake of argument" because you have yet to quote anything in scripture that would make such a premise defensible.

    In short, it's an indefensible argument made only to insult or rile Christians on this board. The Spirit has a meritorious rather than "undue influence" all while allowing the recipient to retain free will.

    Since fantastic claims require even more fantastic evidence, I leave it to you to provide evidence for your assertion. As of now, I consider the argument nothing more than nonsensical fodder that was thrown in to make a non-responsive reply.


    Nah, we simply know that Jephthah was prideful and stubborn as previously stated.

    We also know Jephthah could have redeemed his daughter for 10 shekels, just as I pointed out on two separate occasions.

    Leviticus 27:1–8 (ESV):

    Laws About Vows

    27 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, If anyone makes a special vow to the LORD involving the valuation of persons, 3 then the valuation of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. 4 If the person is a female, the valuation shall be thirty shekels. 5 If the person is from five years old up to twenty years old, the valuation shall be for a male twenty shekels, and for a female ten shekels. 6 If the person is from a month old up to five years old, the valuation shall be for a male five shekels of silver, and for a female the valuation shall be three shekels of silver. 7 And if the person is sixty years old or over, then the valuation for a male shall be fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels. 8 And if someone is too poor to pay the valuation, then he shall be made to stand before the priest, and the priest shall value him; the priest shall value him according to what the vower can afford.


    Modern Judaism focuses much on the here and now (Olam HaZeh), but Jewish afterlife or World to come (Olam Ha-Ba) has always been part of Judaism.

    Isaiah 8:19:

    "And when they will say to you consult the mediums, and the wizards who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" (Isaiah 8:19)

    If the Jews didn't believe in ghosts there would be no need to admonish consultations with the dead, and this is long before the Greeks.


    I find it absolutely bizarre for an irreligious skeptic to suggest a life of automation is somehow preferable to one of free will. As for the “one snap” thingy…that’s Thanos (named after the Greek god of death) and the Marvel universe. In that universe the gods are made in the image of man. In the real universe we are made in His.


    Leviticus 27:1-8. See above.
     
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  6. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    It's VERY late (actually early in the morning) and again I find it difficult to devote as much time as I would like here, so I'll add my response against Blu's assertion that God ordered "mass rape".

    First, it appears Blu has moved on from his earlier allegation and admits that there is no mention that God ordered "mass rape":


    That is a small progress on his part and I applaud him on that. But we now have a new goalpost, from rape to "potential" rape, or copulation. On top of that he sets another goalpost, called "consent":


    I am not sure why he adds an additional "consent" or "choice" to female captives during an ancient era. As far as I know, there was very little female choice or consent with free women, much less captives. The husband took the wife, not the other way around. But even here his argument fails.

    As @1213 has already pointed out, if a Jew want to have intercourse with a female captive he had to marry her first:

    Marrying Female Captives

    10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife." (Deut 21:10-13)

    This was in the law, but why?

    God put it in the law to protect female captives! The marriage requirement was a hedge to prevent female captives from being passed around like sexual chattel. If any "copulation" occurred, the captive had to be married.

    However it's quite possible that Blu has evidence that war captives of Baal and Canaan were much better off than captives of Yahweh and the Jews. If so, I would be very interested in any of the rights, freedoms, and privileges Canaan offered to Jews or other captives.

    In terms of woman's rights (consent & copulation), this would allow us to make an apple to apple comparison between ancient Israel and Canaan rather than the apple to orange comparison he attempted to make with ancient Israel and modern Western civilizations.

    But wait wait wait!!!

    What about all that wiping out of this people and that? Needless genocide isn't it? Well it is, but only if you're a skeptic. Remember Blu's response to @1213's response to eternal life:


    Therein lies the key. Blu does not believe in eternal life. It is this disbelief that makes it difficult for him to understand why God would order the execution of a whole people.

    The difference here is that it is GOD who is ordering the Jews to slay, not the Jews. As such, it is GOD pronouncing direct JUDGEMENT upon the city-states of Canaan. However God is fair and just. He does not convict you for the same crime twice. That's why Jesus could say it would be better for the inhabitant of Sodom and Gomorrah than it would be for some Jews on the Day of Judgement. This makes sense if you know God can raise from the dead, but makes little sense if you don't believe in God at all.

    It's late...good night (or more like good morning) and I'll post back when I can. This has been an enjoyable and fun thread.


     
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  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You haven't put a scratch on my argument. You've simply tried to shout it down.

    Let me ask you the same question I asked our friend MJFlores.

    Is it your view that no copulation followed when the men of Moses' army did as he commanded and divided the virgins between them? Or do you think, yes of course copulations followed. And in that case, is it your view that each of those copulations occurred as the free choice of the relevant virgin? If not, what would you think the percentage of such free choices would be across the range? Bearing in mind these soldiers have just massacred their families and tribes?
    What are you talking about? If it's based on something I posted, please quote it.
    If you're referring to the OP, it's a perfectly valid question for the debate boards here.

    Since the bible attributes the atrocities set out in the OP to God (now the Christian god), why aren't these atrocities taken into account when talking of God's morality?

    As I understand it, many Christians say God is morally perfect. It seems fair to point out that if the bible is an accurate reporter, moral perfection allows invasive war, massacre of populations, mass rape, human sacrifice, slavery, murder, religious intolerance and more.

    Whereas I find all of those things morally vile.

    And I suspect you do too, but you think it would be somehow disloyal to say so out loud.
    What assertion?
    It's not clear from the text that you pay to be released from the vow. It can equally be read that you pay to enter into the vow. But assuming the former, the story is completely silent as to why Jephthah didn't avail himself of it, nor why none of his friends mentioned the rule. Considering his reported regret that his daughter was forfeit, my best guess is that he'd never heard of it. Since God would have known of Jephthah's ignorance, it's hard to escape the conclusion that God decided to leave him in the dark so the sacrifice could go ahead.
    Believing in ghosts is not the same thing as believing in souls. Believing in resurrection is not the same thing as believing in souls.

    But it's not my position that the idea of souls was unknown; only that early on the idea that death is the end is more clearly attested.
    There's theological freewill, which is impossible if God is omnipotent, omniscient &c ─ in such a case God perfectly foresaw this conversation, every letter and punctuation mark of it, before [he] made the universe (hence made the universe intending this conversation to happen exactly in this form), and no one can deviate from what [he] perfectly foresaw, not even by the width of a quark.

    And then there's scientific freewill, the observation that dualism is unevidenced and incoherent, and that the biology of the brain (and body) explains thought, conscience, creativity, memory, speech, reflex action and so on, as a great and growing amount of evidence says. The only apparent chink in that proposition would be if, as QM presently states, events happen at the quantum level that are authentically random, are not produced in the course of chains of cause+effect; and that these events are capable of interrupting the complex and interacting chains of cause+effect in the brain. That wouldn't lead to free will, of course, but it would interrupt strict determinism.
    Let the record show that you said the Marvel heroes can do what God can't.

    If you're omnipotent, you can do magic ─ alter reality independently of the rules of reality, usually just by wishing. When God says "Let there be light!" (or, more strictly translated, cries "Light!") light magically appears. Since real things are said to have pre-existed this command, and that necessarily entails the EM spectrum, I hypothesize [he] meant light in the visible spectrum. And then I wonder by what physical process light was brought into being just because a word was spoken. (The silence on such points is why saying "God did it" is never an explanation ─ we need to understand how God did it.)
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I haven't moved an inch. It's a description of mass rape.
    Because lack of consent is what constitutes rape, of course. Sheesh!
    You're saying that rape was normal and consent was exceptional.

    So what on earth are we arguing about?
     
  9. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    You assumed that these women would be passed around by the winning army. See?

    Now let me assume. These Midianite virgins have arm pit hairs and pungent body odors so nobody, but nobody in their right mental faculties would rape them - how about that for an assumption?

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  10. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein On the funeral pyre of existence
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    :facepalm:
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I didn't say passed around. That's your idea.
    It says a great deal about you.
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Saying to the Jews, "Your father is the devil" is not religious intolerance.
    Jesus only told the truth.
    What can he do when they are really the devil's children?

    [​IMG]

    John 8:41-51 New International Version (NIV)

    You are doing the works of your own father.”

    “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

    “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

    upload_2020-6-8_19-52-44.jpeg

    Examining what Jesus said and what the Jews said - we can evaluate who is telling the truth.

    1. Jesus said the devil and devil's children love to lie and unable to tell the truth.
    2. The Jews said Jesus is a Samaritan and demon possessed.

    Actually the original post is a bunch of lies, so ....

    [​IMG]
     
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    So I was right ─ when you can't mount a reasoned argument you resort to the 'liar' word.

    And since the OP consists of quotes, and references to quotes, from the bible, I take it you're calling the various authors liars ─ or are you saying God wrote it and God's the liar you have in mind?
     
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  16. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    The quote was the verse that I quoted from Daniel:
    Daniel 12:2
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Yes... ruach is 'breath' but soul, though there are different words, is nephesh.

    Strongs defines it as :
    1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
    2. living being
    3. living being (with life in the blood)
    4. the man himself, self, person or individual
    5. seat of the appetites
    6. seat of emotions and passions
    7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
    8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
    9. activity of the character
      1. dubious
    But the point here is just that "soul" wasn't a "Greek" understanding although they may have added to it.

    I think King David made the distinction in Psalms 103: Oh soul and all that is within me, bless the name of the Lord..

    Not body, but soul -- separating the two.

    Yes... but in those instances it is back into their natural bodies... not everlasting. I don't think, in this case, we are just talking about apples but rather the proverbial "apples and oranges".

    That is true... but we aren't referencing NT - Godhead Trinity concept after the Greeks but soul before the Greeks.

    I'm not sure why we are changing subjects here, though good as they may be... a different thread could be in order?
     
    #236 KenS, Jun 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  17. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Blu 2 - a question to you below.

    A full reading in the old testament gives more than only the view of an individual at a moment in time.... Reading for the entirety of all that is in the books, instead of the error of only trying to see an idea (which blinds the reader).

    With full reading, we soon learn eternal life is repeatedly talked of the in the books:

    Isa 26:19 "But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead."

    Dan 12:1-3 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book— will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.”


    And so on.

    Notice the difference between a view at a moment in time from one person, such as Job in distress as you quoted above, vs the overall message delivered repeatedly in scripture.


    10For all can see that the wise die,
    that the foolish and the senseless also perish,
    leaving their wealth to others.

    11Their tombs will remain their houses b forever,
    their dwellings for endless generations,
    though they had c named lands after themselves.

    12People, despite their wealth, do not endure;
    they are like the beasts that perish.
    13This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,
    and of their followers, who approve their sayings. d

    14They are like sheep and are destined to die;
    death will be their shepherd
    (but the upright will prevail over them in the morning).
    Their forms will decay in the grave,
    far from their princely mansions.

    15 But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;
    he will surely take me to himself.


    Psalm 49 NIV


    So, here's a question for you

    Blu 2 -- When you find out you are mistaken, do you change your view?

    ?
     
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  18. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Simply, Christ answers why only some will find heaven -- it is in part one's own personal choice -- whether we listen to Him and do as He says:

    12“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

    13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few....

    21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ... 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    24“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
    Matthew 7 ESV

    As you can see, this is a humble road: to listen to Christ as being wiser/better/smarter than we are, and to follow and do as He says. Not all are willing to be humble. It's just as I quoted to you above already:

    " God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

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    Hmm. My reaction is that Strong's
    1. seat of the appetites
    2. seat of emotions and passions
    are a better fit here.
    Indeed, as with Lazarus &c. But it occurs to me that my own thinking has been sloppy, in that so far I haven't given a firm definition of what I mean by soul. So ...

    Miriam-Webster relevantly says
    [1] : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
    [2] : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe

    Shorter Oxford:
    [3] : The principle of life in man or animals
    [4] : the principle of thought and action in man, commonly regarded as an entity distinct from the body
    [5] : the spiritual part of man as distinct from the physical body.

    Collins
    [6] : the spirit or immaterial part of man
    [7] : the seat of human personality, intellect, will and emotions, regarded as an entity that survives the body after death

    And of those, the last one, [7], is closest to what I'm talking about.

    I welcome your comments here, because it may be that at certain points we've been talking past each other.
    D'accord.
    Mea culpa, I was thinking out loud ─ rambling, is another word for it.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Your assertion that God is vile and orders mass rape was incendiary Blu. Of course it's going to be shouted down. Compare such a statement to this one:

    The latter question is EXCELLENT and promotes discussion. The former, which appear to be something swiped from an anti- Judaeo-Christian site, is simply inflammatory.

    I'll discuss you second question later, perhaps tomorrow or if I have time (doubtful) tonight.

    What puzzles me immediately is the rationale behind such arguments. Are not the irreligious interested in adding to their ranks? How do you do that when you so effortlessly coalesce normally warring theological parties into a unified whole?

    See above. "Undue influence" is an unwarranted or inappropriate influence.

    No, no... it's Blü that attributes atrocities to God, not the bible. Let's not confuse the two!

    As @KenS stated in post 20, the OP is Christophobia and Tanakaphobia rolled into one.

    As stated previously I find it hard to believe Jephthah, a Judge of Israel, had no knowledge of the law and that no one around him had knowledge either.

    And you stretch such arguments to incredulity when you allege that somehow silence by God is permission by God. By that reasoning, falling down and worshiping the golden calf was fine with God because He didn't say anything at the time.

    I will agree that it's the end of any earthly plans we have.

    I'm not following this Blu. God foresees our plans and simply allows for it. His plans come to fruition despite any plan we make to the contrary.

    And if He created, as some models suggest, a multiverse of infinite parallelisms, then He has allowed every possible combination of plan that could be made to be made...and yet His plan for us will still come to fruition.

    In any event, you have theological free will...the ability to believe what you wish to believe, even though God is omnipotent and omniscient.

    In ancient cultures, consent did not come from the woman...it came from the father. It was dad that gave consent for the daughter to be married.

    Under your premise of female consent, married Jewish women were being raped by their husbands because they were taken and hadn't consented to marriage.

    It was a different time and a different culture.

    No, I'm saying that it was normal for a woman to be taken in marriage regardless of whether she consented to the marriage or not. That constitutes a different time and culture, not a rape.

    And yes, female consent was exceptional rather than the rule. The brides price was paid to the father of the bride. As such, allowing a woman to marry whomever she wished (such as her poor neighbor's son) could prove financially costly to the bridal family.
     
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