The Good Bad & Ugly

[QuestioningMind]

He denounced cruelty.
One might ask, Does the Bible Condone Slavery?
Love, one of the basic principles of godly devotion, is diametrically opposed to the concept of oppressive slavery. Of course some people wonder about the mention of slavery in the Bible.
God allowed his people to own slaves in ancient times. (Genesis 14:14, 15) And in the days of the apostles, some Christians were slave owners and some were slaves. (Philemon 15, 16) Does this mean that the Bible condones oppressive slavery? In order to justly answer that question, I suggest you read the following. Does the Bible Condone Slavery? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

Of COURSE it condones slavery. All you have to do is read the words in the bible. I provided them in a previous post. God clearly states you can buy people as property. God clearly states that you can own them for their entire lives and pass them on as an inheritance to your children. God clearly states that you are allowed to beat your slaves, just as long as they don't die within a couple of days as a result. And BECAUSE the bible makes it so very clear that god has no problem with slavery, we had Christians in the mid 1800's in this nation vehemently arguing that their loving god supported their ownership of other people as property. That's simply the ugly truth and no matter how hard you try and twist the meaning of what is so clearly written it's not going to change that ugly truth.

 

[YoursTrue]

As flawed as courts of law may be, at least they'd condemn me as a criminal if I were to try and force you to be my slave. Sadly your god would be fine with it, just as long as I don't beat you to death. I'll take the flawed morality of the courts over the blatant immorality of your god any day.

As I said there are many different forms of slavery. God is stronger and wiser than any court system.

 

[YoursTrue]

Of COURSE it condones slavery. All you have to do is read the words in the bible. I provided them in a previous post. God clearly states you can buy people as property. God clearly states that you can own them for their entire lives and pass them on as an inheritance to your children. God clearly states that you are allowed to beat your slaves, just as long as they don't die within a couple of days as a result. And BECAUSE the bible makes it so very clear that god has no problem with slavery, we had Christians in the mid 1800's in this nation vehemently arguing that their loving god supported their ownership of other people as property. That's simply the ugly truth and no matter how hard you try and twist the meaning of what is so clearly written it's not going to change that ugly truth.

I have someone who works for me. She is a wonderful, excellent worker. I do not rule her life, obviously, and I wouldn't want to, but she has a difficult life personally. I generally tell her what to do. She can offer her opinion, but in the long run she has to listen to me. If I'm dissatisfied greatly, I can let her go, and she has the freedom to stop working for me. I could go on about her circumstances, but I won't. Anyway, every day I do things I don't want to, but I have to. Some people work at professions that can hurt them. They know that, but they choose to be in dangerous settings for one reason or another. Money, perhaps? In any way, we're slaves. As I peer into the law of Moses I realize how beautifully crafted it is. But it's telling you there is a God.
"By the time the Bible began to be written, humans had already established social structures and economic systems that conflicted with godly principles. While some of the practices involved were condemned in his written Law, God chose to tolerate others, such as slavery." lThat is true, taken from the article cited. Can you contest that statement, or is it that you just don't like it?)

 

[YoursTrue]

Wow... you have a truly bizarre definition of 'fairly'. So you think it's 'fair' for a slave owner to beat their slave, just as long as the slave doesn't die within a couple of days from the beating? Would you allow me to own you under such rules and restrictions?

Alliwance by the slave for someone to own him is not the question. Most slaves don't want to be slaves. But we're all slaves one way or another. It's almost like the old song, Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. I gotta get up tomorrow and I don't want to do what I should do. My body hurts. It's full of arthritis. I must get sleep. I'm a slave to these things.

The social times have a lot to do with the forms of slavery accepted as the norm.[/QUOTE]

 

[QuestioningMind]

As I said there are many different forms of slavery. God is stronger and wiser than any court system.

Cool... you can start toiling as my slave immediately. First scrub the floors then start on the laundry. Quickly now, before I beat you!

 

[QuestioningMind]

I have someone who works for me. She is a wonderful, excellent worker. I do not rule her life, obviously, and I wouldn't want to, but she has a difficult life personally. I generally tell her what to do. She can offer her opinion, but in the long run she has to listen to me. If I'm dissatisfied greatly, I can let her go, and she has the freedom to stop working for me. I could go on about her circumstances, but I won't. Anyway, every day I do things I don't want to, but I have to. Some people work at professions that can hurt them. They know that, but they choose to be in dangerous settings for one reason or another. Money, perhaps? In any way, we're slaves. As I peer into the law of Moses I realize how beautifully crafted it is. But it's telling you there is a God.
"By the time the Bible began to be written, humans had already established social structures and economic systems that conflicted with godly principles. While some of the practices involved were condemned in his written Law, God chose to tolerate others, such as slavery." lThat is true, taken from the article cited. Can you contest that statement, or is it that you just don't like it?)

"By the time the Bible began to be written, humans had already established social structures and economic systems that conflicted with godly principles. While some of the practices involved were condemned in his written Law, God chose to tolerate others, such as slavery." lThat is true, taken from the article cited. Can you contest that statement, or is it that you just don't like it?)

It sounds like a pretty pathetic excuse to me. Your god was able to tell people to stop killing each other, even though they'd been doing it since the beginning of time. He was able to tell them not to steal, not to wear blended fibers, not to work on the sabbath... but owning other people as property? Now THAT was just too much for god to expect his creations to stop doing. And worse yet, he didn't just 'tolerate' it, he very specifically condones the immoral practice.

Sorry, that's just a very sad excuse for a very ugly practice.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Alliwance by the slave for someone to own him is not the question. Most slaves don't want to be slaves. But we're all slaves one way or another. It's almost like the old song, Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. I gotta get up tomorrow and I don't want to do what I should do. My body hurts. It's full of arthritis. I must get sleep. I'm a slave to these things.

The social times have a lot to do with the forms of slavery accepted as the norm.

[/QUOTE]

So just because we're 'all slaves in one way or another' that means that means you think that owning another person as property isn't immoral?

I also find it interesting that you're saying god's morality changes, all depending on the morality of society. It's almost as if infallible people just made up what 'god wants' all based on what THEY considered to be moral.

 

[YoursTrue]

"By the time the Bible began to be written, humans had already established social structures and economic systems that conflicted with godly principles. While some of the practices involved were condemned in his written Law, God chose to tolerate others, such as slavery." lThat is true, taken from the article cited. Can you contest that statement, or is it that you just don't like it?)

It sounds like a pretty pathetic excuse to me. Your god was able to tell people to stop killing each other, even though they'd been doing it since the beginning of time. He was able to tell them not to steal, not to wear blended fibers, not to work on the sabbath... but owning other people as property? Now THAT was just too much for god to expect his creations to stop doing. And worse yet, he didn't just 'tolerate' it, he very specifically condones the immoral practice.

Sorry, that's just a very sad excuse for a very ugly practice.

No, it's reality. Condoning marriage, divorce, and re-marriage is another reality.

 

[YoursTrue]

So just because we're 'all slaves in one way or another' that means that means you think that owning another person as property isn't immoral?

I also find it interesting that you're saying god's morality changes, all depending on the morality of society. It's almost as if infallible people just made up what 'god wants' all based on what THEY considered to be moral.

Let's go back to social norms, and/or overturning them. think about it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No, it's reality. Condoning marriage, divorce, and re-marriage is another reality.

Yes, in reality it is a rather pathetic excuse. Any being who considers owning another human being as property to be a moral act is not a being worthy of anyone's worship. And any 'all-powerful' being who is afraid to tell his creations that slavery is immoral just because he doesn't think his creations will like it is a rather pathetic creator being. That would be like me saying that I never taught my toddler that biting other people is wrong because I just knew he/she wouldn't listen to me.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Let's go back to social norms, and/or overturning them. think about it.

Yeah, let's talk about changing social norms. If there's a social norm that is wrong you can either condemn the social act as wrong or you can condone the act as acceptable. If you condemn the act as wrong there's a chance that some people will stop doing it. However, if you condone the act as acceptable chances are good that everyone will continue to perform this act and will in fact refer to the fact that you condoned it as good reason to continue doing it.

Think about it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, let's talk about changing social norms. If there's a social norm that is wrong you can either condemn the social act as wrong or you can condone the act as acceptable. If you condemn the act as wrong there's a chance that some people will stop doing it. However, if you condone the act as acceptable chances are good that everyone will continue to perform this act and will in fact refer to the fact that you condoned it as good reason to continue doing it.

Think about it.

Slavery was similar to that which is considered by many freedom today, that is, working for a living. Paying taxes, getting in trouble, going to jail, making poor choices. It's just like Jesus said about marriage and divorce.
Titus 2:
9Slaves are to submit to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10not stealing from them, but showing all good faith, so that in every respect they will adorn the teaching about God our Savior.11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. 12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Slavery was similar to that which is considered by many freedom today, that is, working for a living. Paying taxes, getting in trouble, going to jail, making poor choices. It's just like Jesus said about marriage and divorce.
Titus 2:
9Slaves are to submit to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10not stealing from them, but showing all good faith, so that in every respect they will adorn the teaching about God our Savior.11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. 12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Slavery was similar to that which is considered by many freedom today, that is, working for a living

No, slavery was not and never was similar to what many consider freedom today.

 

[YoursTrue]

Slavery was similar to that which is considered by many freedom today, that is, working for a living

No, slavery was not and never was similar to what many consider freedom today.

To a degree it is. But then I must ask you: what nations, or societies, would you say are free? Then please delineate what is free about them. Thank you.

 

[QuestioningMind]

To a degree it is. But then I must ask you: what nations, or societies, would you say are free? Then please delineate what is free about them. Thank you.

You're not actually trying to argue that because there isn't a society on Earth where people aren't 'slaves'' to their job or the need for money in order to survive that it SOMEHOW justifies owning other people as property, are you? That would be absolutely sad and pathetic.

 

[nPeace]

"By the time the Bible began to be written, humans had already established social structures and economic systems that conflicted with godly principles. While some of the practices involved were condemned in his written Law, God chose to tolerate others, such as slavery." lThat is true, taken from the article cited. Can you contest that statement, or is it that you just don't like it?)

It sounds like a pretty pathetic excuse to me. Your god was able to tell people to stop killing each other, even though they'd been doing it since the beginning of time. He was able to tell them not to steal, not to wear blended fibers, not to work on the sabbath... but owning other people as property? Now THAT was just too much for god to expect his creations to stop doing. And worse yet, he didn't just 'tolerate' it, he very specifically condones the immoral practice.

Sorry, that's just a very sad excuse for a very ugly practice.

immoral practice?
Based on what principle?
The ones that are not based on any foundation?
How can any nation decide what's immoral, when they don't have a standard of morality?
There was nothing immoral about God using prisoners of war, and individuals indebted to him for crimes committed, as workers.

This was a benefit, both ways, as repeatedly shown to you.
Why talk about morals, which don't exist to people who decide for themselves what is good and bad?
Those are one's individual opinions... not morals.
However, if you insist on calling them morals, how can you insist that others live by them, if there is no set morality?
Or do you believe morality is universally set? Who set it?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What specifically, if anything, do you find good

, bad

, ugly

, about the Bible?

What specific things can you share.

1 Samuel 15:3

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly adestroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Ugly!

 

[YoursTrue]

1 Samuel 15:3

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly adestroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Ugly!

I understand how you might feel. But you do realize, of course, that many nations, for the sake of discussion, have killed their enemy, right? And this,of course, would relate to man, woman, child. Oxen, etc. May I ask you how you feel about that?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I understand how you might feel. But you do realize, of course, that many nations, for the sake of discussion, have killed their enemy, right? And this,of course, would relate to man, woman, child. Oxen, etc. May I ask you how you feel about that?

I expect men to kill each other. I don't expect a god to advocate wholesale slaughter of every living thing. But I can believe Yahweh would do this and that leads to my real statement:

The opinion of many scholars: Yahweh is the mythical god of the early Israelis in the same way Zeus is the mythical god of the early Greeks. No difference. Yahweh possesses these traits of ordering murders because he was imbued with these murderous impulses by the men who possessed these traits who created the portrait of Yahweh when they wrote the Old Testament, drawing on their own murderous impulses. You are aware, I hope, that the Hebrews stole Yahweh from the Canaanites when the Hebrews lived among them in Canaan and then split off. The Exodus is pure myth--every scholar outside Christianity acknowledges this fact.

Israel’s Edomite neighbors worshiped Yahweh as a god of wars and storms. Yahweh arrived in Canaan, where the Israelites lived, brought by a group of his nomadic worshipers.

How YHWH Became God

Why the Exodus Story Has Value Despite Being Complete Myth

Why the Exodus Story Has Value Despite Being Complete Myth

 

[nPeace]

1 Samuel 15:3

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly adestroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Ugly!

Mannn that's ugly.
Thanks.
Just one question to you to lay the foundation, so to speak.
Say you saw someone slaughtering a whole bunch of animals on a farm - just shooting them, what would you think of that person?