The God of Abraham and Getting Down to Brass Tacks

[Skwim]

If you, as a believer in the god of Abraham, expect others to join your ranks, what incentive do you offer? But before you answer consider that this is a god who purposely created evil or bad times or disaster or calamity or doom or hard times or adversity, depending on which Bible you read (Isaiah 45:7)

And

Allows the existence of suffering

Permits the existence of genetic diseases and defects

Created an eternal hell whose entry is based solely on one's behavior during a very minuscule time on earth

Condones and advocates slavery

Kills innocent humans

Advocates raping the women of one's enemy

Expects human sacrifice

Kills those who worship foreign gods

Burns those who transgress his covenant.​

Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship and adore this being, but why? Is it because the good stuff he's done offsets these reprehensible acts? OR is it because he's promised not to send them to hell if they do?

In my opinion the good things this god has done hardly begin to counterbalance all the bad stuff. So I have to conclude that people don't worship and adore him for his character, which is obviously far from stellar or worthy of emulation, but solely to curry favor so as not to wind up in hell, Which in MHO means that any professed praise or love rings quite hollow---it's like bribing the jail keeper. OR . . . there's a serious disconnect between what this god is actually like and how he's perceived.

And is this how I, a non believer in the god of Abraham, am expected to regard him: forget about his true character and instead convince myself he's especially good and therefore worthy of my worship and praise in order to avoid hell?

But don't get me wrong. I can see why one might be thankful for having been given life, but why pick the god of Abraham to thank?


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[Godobeyer]

Please watch this to the end
I made a thread about.

 

[Skwim]

"Allah never orders evil to be performed, but allows it" is a nice sentiment I suppose, but never having ordered evil contradicts what almost half of all Bible versions say. Moreover, allowing evil to exist is hardly any better.

And his excuse for it: freedom can only exist where evil is present, is beyond reason. Care to make a case for it?

As for being free, which I assume means that god gave us free will, I don't buy it. No one has free will.


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[Godobeyer]

As for being free, which I assume means that god gave us free will, I don't buy it. No one has free will.
.

Now you are free to disagree with God or believe or disbelieve in Him or also doing good deed or evil deeds ,
it's all up to you,not Him now. everyone is responsible for his deeds.
all these will count to Judgement Day.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Now you are free to disagree with God or believe or disbelieve in Him or also doing good deed or evil deeds ,
it's all up to you,not Him now. everyone is responsible for his deeds.
all these will count to Judgement Day.

Not sure we share the same definition of freedom.

Being threatened with eternal hellfire unless I obey isn't freedom at all, any more than a prisoner is free when he chooses to disobey the warden.

Not sure how smallpox, eubola, malaria, and countless other diseases need to exist so we can have freedom, either.

 

[Godobeyer]

Not sure we share the same definition of freedom.

Being threatened with eternal hellfire unless I obey isn't freedom at all, any more than a prisoner is free when he chooses to disobey the warden.

Not sure how smallpox, eubola, malaria, and countless other diseases need to exist so we can have freedom, either.

This is it , we humans we used jails or punishement for whom disobey the laws.

Freedom is not suppose illimited that would hurt the doer in first place,for exemple kill innocent,or make evil deed to others.may cost jail and punishement.

don't worry ,diseases are count too and considerable, everyone would judge for his/her situation/level, in his/her period of time.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

This is it , we humans we used jails or punishement for whom disobey the laws.

Freedom is not suppose illimited that would hurt the doer in first place,for exemple kill innocent,or make evil deed to others.may cost jail and punishement.

don't worry ,diseases are count too and considerable, everyone would judge for his/her situation/level, in his/her period of time.

No, it's not the same. You very much misunderstand my point.

Man's laws are the result of judicial process, and the punishments are proportional to the crimes.

Believe it or not, most people follow the laws because they agree with them. There is due process, and laws can change as society changes.

When I say it's like a "prisoner disobeying the warden", what I mean is . . You are BORN into that prison, and you live there your whole existence.

You're talking INFINITE punishment for finite crimes that often hurt no one else. There is no reasoning with it, there is no appeal, and there is no way to alter the sentencing. . . You are born into this prison, and according to you, there is no escape.

I am SO glad that none of it is real.

 

[Godobeyer]

When I say it's like a "prisoner disobeying the warden", what I mean is . . You are BORN into that prison, and you live there your whole existence.

You're talking INFINITE punishment for finite crimes that often hurt no one else. There is no reasoning with it, there is no appeal, and there is no way to alter the sentencing. . . You are born into this prison, and according to you, there is no escape.

I am SO glad that none of it is real.

I don't got your point here about born in prison !
Do you meant that you have a limited opinions,by limited time(period of your life) by limited body ?

I was not talking about infinity punishment for finite crimes.

I do believe God is justice,so He who made the laws,ONLY Him who had the right to forgive or punish,or award.

So evidencely you will be judge for "ONLY" the options that you had given by Him.

the issue of infinity punishment is debatable between the Muslims and ambiguous subject. some are said the punishment in hell could be limited for some people, some verses of Quran mentioned to that.

Only God knows.

 

[rusra02]

I believe your post presents a totally inaccurate, false picture of the true God. Similar to asking someone how they could stay married to someone who is unfaithful, abusive, and cruel, when their spouse is none of those things.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

This is it , we humans we used jails or punishement for whom disobey the laws.

And we don't send people to prison (ideally) if they were incapable of doing otherwise (due to being forced or desperation or mental illness or ...). If someone else pays your fine, you don't go to jail. Demanding personal responsibility after Jesus supposedly fixed everything seems counterproductive, like double-billing or something. It just reinforces a sense of distrust in the authority figure.

 

[Godobeyer]

And we don't send people to prison (ideally) if they were incapable of doing otherwise (due to being forced or desperation or mental illness or ...). If someone else pays your fine, you don't go to jail. Demanding personal responsibility after Jesus supposedly fixed everything seems counterproductive, like double-billing or something. It just reinforces a sense of distrust in the authority figure.

Most of people doing bad deeds they did it because they want to.

There is much evil persons

 

[Kuzcotopia]

The issue of infinity punishment is debatable between the Muslims and ambiguous subject. some are said the punishment in hell could be limited for some people, some verses of Quran mentioned to that.

How do you go about determining who is right?

Obviously one of you is right. . . Either hell is infinite, or finite based on severity.

You can quote competing passages from a book, but ultimately, one of you is wrong, no?

How can you be so certain about any aspect of doctrine at all, given this conundrum?

How can you even know that you are successfully obeying God at all, if there must be debate about the punishments and rewards of doing so?

Again, so glad none of this is actually real.

 

[Skwim]

I believe your post presents a totally inaccurate, false picture of the true God.

Okay, then point out which statements are wrong and why.

Similar to asking someone how they could stay married to someone who is unfaithful, abusive, and cruel, when their spouse is none of those things.

Fine, then tell us why your Bible is wrong in describing god as a deity who

Allows the existence of suffering

Permits the existence of genetic diseases and defects

Created an eternal hell whose entry is based solely on one's behavior during a very minuscule time on earth

Condones and advocates slavery

Kills innocent humans

Advocates raping the women of one's enemy

Expects human sacrifice

Kills those who worship foreign gods

Burns those who transgress his covenant.


.​

 

[Acim]

If you, as a believer in the god of Abraham, expect others to join your ranks, what incentive do you offer? But before you answer consider that this is a god who purposely created evil or bad times or disaster or calamity or doom or hard times or adversity, depending on which Bible you read (Isaiah 45:7)

And

Allows the existence of suffering

Permits the existence of genetic diseases and defects

Created an eternal hell whose entry is based solely on one's behavior during a very minuscule time on earth

Condones and advocates slavery

Kills innocent humans

Advocates raping the women of one's enemy

Expects human sacrifice

Kills those who worship foreign gods

Burns those who transgress his covenant.​

​

I don't get the joining ranks part exactly, but realize the whole point is talking to orthodox types. With us Gnostic types, such arguments wouldn't bode well in the points you wish to make, but are seemingly under prepared to discuss them. Nothing of this list would match what I attribute to God, and does happen to match what I understand demiurge having manifest. All undoable, as all are based on illusion.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship and adore this being, but why?

I wholly appreciate God because of the maximal Love God extends/shares with all Creation.

If for some reason this doesn't make sense to you, think of someone that you truly love. Now, imagine if I attributed everything on the list to that person/being, when you knew it didn't belong to them, would you still love the person even after what I claimed? I'm thinking - surely yes. Yet, if being rationale, you may wish to discover why these things are attributed to that being. When you discover the truth, you'd perhaps wish to share it, but if you realized it started with you (even while at first you might deny such an assertion), you might be careful in how you wage the blame game.

Is it because the good stuff he's done offsets these reprehensible acts? OR is it because he's promised not to send them to hell if they do?

Yes to the first, especially with Knowledge that the reprehensible is unattributed to God. To the second inquiry, there is no (actual) hell. If there is, then this world of separation (really illusion) is it. Welcome to hell! Enjoy your stay.

In my opinion the good things this god has done hardly begin to counterbalance all the bad stuff. So I have to conclude that people don't worship and adore him for his character, which is obviously far from stellar or worthy of emulation, but solely to curry favor so as not to wind up in hell, Which in MHO means that any professed praise or love rings quite hollow---it's like bribing the jail keeper. OR . . . there's a serious disconnect between what this god is actually like and how he's perceived.

And is this how I, a non believer in the god of Abraham, am expected to regard him: forget about his true character and instead convince myself he's especially good and therefore worthy of my worship and praise in order to avoid hell?

But don't get me wrong. I can see why one might be thankful for having been given life, but why pick the god of Abraham to thank?

Again, since you seem to only be addressing orthodox types and in off chance you think you are open to all who profess to worship (Abraham) God, then do realize that some of us aren't limiting ourself to the current set of ancient Holy Books. Some of us know that if you wish direct communication, it can be had. Thus makes those books seem far less extraordinary and yet there are still portions to appreciate, while others may be reconciled with God/Holy Spirit for greater perspective. I really do see it as 'Revelation all the time' but took me awhile to get to that understanding. I think it plausible for anyone to understand Progressive Revelation or to realize that a Living God has not stopped speaking to humanity, and thus there are modern day revelations which yes, have own shortcomings, but also provide greater, up to date, understandings. Pertinent to today's world. Even these are second fiddle to own personal communication, which I fully believe is open to everyone at any time. And even if not hearing discernible words, I fully believe the connection is there, is being made, even if individual claims they are not consciously aware of it.

While I could name a number of text/doctrines that I think may help (in obtaining greater perspective), if you look through my posts, you'll likely see that I refrain from doing so. Mostly because I'd strongly suggest going to direct Source within you. Meditate, contemplate, rinse and repeat. If the other texts are meant to find you, they will.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

There is much evil persons

God made them that way. Gee, thanks, God.

 

[Godobeyer]

God made them that way. Gee, thanks, God.

No,I disagree , they made them selfs .
everyone is responsible for his/her deeds whatever good or bad.

 

[Godobeyer]

How do you go about determining who is right?

Depend commun sense or God orders ?

Obviously one of you is right. . . Either hell is infinite, or finite based on severity.

There is no severity in with justice.

You can quote competing passages from a book, but ultimately, one of you is wrong, no?

Yes,thats called different interpretations.

How can you be so certain about any aspect of doctrine at all, given this conundrum?

I am certain,that's called believe.

How can you even know that you are successfully obeying God at all, if there must be debate about the punishments and rewards of doing so?

In God we trust,If I am not successfully obeying God , I am looking for His mercy and forgiveness.

Again, so glad none of this is actually real.

My advise
don't be glad until you be sure that you would not resurrected and judged.


Can I ask you a question ,I think that you are atheist, right ?

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Depend commun sense or God orders ?


There is no severity in with justice.


Yes,thats called different interpretations.


I am certain,that's called believe.


In God we trust,If I am not successfully obeying God , I am looking for His mercy and forgiveness.


My advise
don't be glad until you be sure that you would not resurrected and judged.


Can I ask you a question ,I think that you are atheist, right ?

Yup. Atheist.

So is the OP, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Yup. Atheist.

So is the OP, if I'm not mistaken.

Atheist is such a loaded word, especially in the minds of many believers, who tend to pile all sorts of preconceived fluff vis a vis what atheists 'believe' on top like gravy on potatoes.

I prefer the word 'unconvinced'.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No,I disagree , they made them selfs .
everyone is responsible for his/her deeds whatever good or bad.

But God set it up like that. He could have dialled the evil side right down when installing the morality chip.