The God Dream

[sealchan]

This thread will contain content from another forum which has long gone out of existence. It contains a theory about the psychologically objective reality of God. It was, perhaps, one of the most amazing experiences I've had in a forum because I not only fully realized how my own experience mutually validates the character of the description of some Biblical God experiences, but I found that my peers in that forum had similar experiences in their own life.

I will post this the way I did before...in installments to build on the claims in this first introductory section.


The God Dream - The Objective Reality of God in the Human Psyche

In the center of the psyche is like the center of the Universe, everywhere and nowhere. Who we are is a story we tell and that story rests on the slight of hand of language and the willing cooperation of story teller and his or her audience. There is no beginning, no end, no mathematical proof, no certificate of authenticity...just mutual collusion to believe in what we cannot point at, lean on or define.

We, as a collective, invent ourselves and yet we do so against a background of physical reality that rises up in our own minds and provides a corrective response. Sometimes that response comes in the form of a dream or vision that affects a person deeply and makes us wonder at whether there is a higher intelligence than that of our own personal mind or even the collective mind of our society or our species. Having this kind of experience puts us in touch directly with the will of God and defines something critical in our nature that we didn't have defined before. The experience is historical and transformative.

This type of vision or dream has certain characteristics that make it recognizable. First there is the experience of deep fear often with the spectre of death close at hand. Often this fear resolves into a release from that fear, an answer in the form of a name. That name might be of God itself or it might be the dreamer's own new name. The name, the personal name, is the salvation from the death that is threatened.

God is not imaged in these visions but his avatar or His angel may be. Where such images exist there may be less fear in the vision than there is when the presence of God is near. This type of experience happens to believers and non-believers alike and so is independent of culture and personal opinion. It is the signature of the objective reality of God in the human psyche.

I will present five examples of this type of vision each in a separate post on this thread:

• Abram's encounters with God in Genesis 15 and 17
• My own dream about God
• An atheist's dream about Satan
• An atheist's dream about Jesus
• Some believers dream about Jesus

Although this is a small sample size I think it is interesting in just how well they all fit the pattern of God dreams in general. This pattern is shared with UFO dreams as well making UFOs fall somewhere in the spectrum of dreams about God and Jesus.

 

[dybmh]

Thank you for sharing this. I look forward to future installments.

 

[sealchan]

I guess I should cough up the first bit...here I lay out the groundwork for my comparative analysis...

In Genesis 15 Abram receives the word of the LORD in a vision. The LORD says to "not be afraid" and that He is his "shield" and your very great reward. As evidence of this the LORD directs Abram to "look up at the sky and count the stars" The LORD told Abram to gather some animals for sacrifice. Then as the sun set and Abram fell asleep, he became aware of a "thick and dreadful darkness". God foretold to Abram what would be and made it a covenant with him.

In Genesis 17 the LORD appeared to Abram and Abram fell face down. God repeated his prior covenant but this time added the ritual of circumcision. God gave Abram a new name, Abraham. This He did also for Sarai...Sarah. Abraham fell facedown again and laughed when God said Sarah would provide him a son. After God's presence left, Abraham moved immediately to perform the circumcision as was required.

Taken in isolation it is not apparent that Abram/Abraham's experience with God is a template for how over history many people within the cultural scope of the Bible have encountered God or His messengers. But I will lay out the motifs to recognize in this pair of vision/dreams and then apply it to other examples in further posts.

God is not (to be) seen: The first vision makes no mention of the appearance of the LORD but indicates that His word came to Abram. When God became present, it is stated twice that Abram/Abraham fell face down. Even when God is nearby His image is not to be looked at. This contrasts with dreams about Jesus where his image is often portrayed. However, it may be that in these dreams it is more a visual image of Jesus that is present rather than Jesus himself.

Great fear: In Genesis 15 Abram's fear is indicated by God's words. Then there came a thick and dreadful darkness. Such darkness can be likened to that which is experienced in near lucid dreaming where the dreamer is as if looking at the room in which he or she is sleeping...as if the dreamer's eyes are opened while lying in bed. The thickness as an emotional terror and as a paralysis. In Genesis 17 Abram/Abraham's prostration can easily be interpreted as fear based and his desire not to look on God as driven by a terror of what would occur if he did. Circumcision and the pain inevitably involved represents fear as well. Although no infant would anticipate such suffering, any adult would. In many cultures it is the adolescent which undergoes circumcision so that the anticipation of the fear is a part of the process.

Resolution to fear: In Genesis 15 God indicates that although he is the source of Abram's fear He will also be the source of his safety and his success. The promise, the covenant, of the LORD comes with a moment of fear or pain and then a future of promise and fulfillment. All of this is the reward for having faced that fear and gone through it. This is why as a ritual, circumcision is an important symbol for a life worth living, the greatest reward comes when one does not back down in the face of momentary suffering. Circumcision then provides a ritual experience in which a person can symbolicaly confront their fear of death and the suffering that it indicates.

Presentation/Acquisition of a significant name: In Genesis 17, God, as part of the transformational covenant that He had made with Abram including the ritual act of circumcision with models the experience of encountering God in fear and then in joyful expectation, provides Abram with a new name, Abraham. The new name indicates that Abraham is/will be a new person because of his encounter with God. In dreams about Jesus we will see that naming Jesus is often the significant naming event of the dream or vision. In a way it is as if in naming Jesus we are naming ourselves in terms of our intercessor with the unseen God.

Decisive action: Once God instructed Abraham in the requirement of circumcision, Abraham was moved to immediately comply with his side of the covenant. The transformational experience of encountering God brings with it a deep motivation to undertake new resolve and new action. This resolve, this transformation in Abraham's character, is later, perhaps, seen in his willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac at what was God's command. Again, in this later account, there is the fear followed by the deep relief as God indicates to Abraham that although he was willing to face such ultimate loss even through his own willing action, his fear did not conquer his desire. God also, in a sort of trickster fashion, proved that the appearances of the world, even where God is involved does not trump God's ultimate promise.

Lights in the sky: I'm going to add this motif in as it is intriguing given some of the dreams that I will be presenting that match some or all of the motifs above. Looking up at the stars one can get a sense of God's presence in the immensity of it all. The stars have always appeared to be innumerable. If you have ever stood at the edge of the Grand Canyon you also know what it means to be in the presence of a creation far greater than anything you had ever encountered. It is, perhaps, the vast space of detail that both the stars and the Grand Canyon presents to the visual cortex that leaves our minds reeling with the amount of "visual input".

Sexual encounter: This will tie in later more but I realize now that the ceremonial act of circumcision might have at least some relationship with human sexuality. I also feel it important to include in case this particular motif is important to someone's personal encounter or knowledge of such encounter with God.

 

[sealchan]

I am going to edit the original content a bit for readability...

I had the following dream when I was 29 years old (I recorded the exact date in my dream journal):

In my dream I lay awake in the bedroom of my parents home (my childhood home). I knew that coming down the hall to the bedroom was a malevolent force and that if I didn't choose the correct divine name before it opened the door, it would destroy me. Suddenly, I became aware of what that name was and all my fear vanished in a symphony of music to which I added my operatic voice in utter ecstasy.

That's the dream. It contains the following motifs:

• God is not seen
• Great fear
• Resolution to that fear
• Acquisition of a significant name

To the last motif I should add that at about eight years previously I, for the first time, spoke to God. I complained to God that the reality that He had created was not good enough and that I was going to take it upon myself to make it better. Hubris, certainly, but as a result of that outcry against God I immediately (in a matter of days and weeks) felt myself emerging out of a depression that I had been suffering since my first girlfriend broke up with me. Now certainly this can be seen as me growing up and taking responsibility for my own life, but it took an imaginal conversation with God for me to establish that this was going to be the case for me by my own effort. Immediately after making that declaration I began the task of rewriting the first chapter of Genesis according to what seemed more insightful to me. I wrote for hours on stationary that I still have stored away. It was absolutely a liberating experience that I carry with me today as a day that I woke up. As part of that effort of writing I established a spiritual nickname for myself, I was inspired to identify a spiritual name for myself, a kind of symbol for my own highest personal goals and and desires spiritually. I will not share that name here as it is personal and would just sound silly to others. I have also used it as the basis of many of my passwords over the years...most have been altered to a new base, but not all.

So this dream refers back to this earlier experience and in doing so we can add the following motif:

• Decisive action

I will also state this...in the dream journal where I logged the above dream I had another dream immediately following that one. It was, by far, the most explicitly sexual dream I have ever had. I will not recount the details but it was remarkable. Although I had, from time to time, recalled having had that dream, I did not realize, until I looked at my dream journal that these two dreams occurred on the same night. So lets add:

• Sexual encounter

The relevance of this should come up in some of the other dreams that I have as examples...

 

[sealchan]

...

Sexual encounter: This will tie in later more but I realize now that the ceremonial act of circumcision might have at least some relationship with human sexuality. I also feel it important to include in case this particular motif is important to someone's personal encounter or knowledge of such encounter with God.

I should also note that God promises Abraham a son by Sarah...this might tie into the sexual encounter as a relevant motif.

 

[sealchan]

Here is a dream that was offered on another forum by an atheist during the course of a discussion about dreams in general...

Less pleasant ones have been when I've not been able to open my eyes (repeated just the other night), or I'm confronted by a demon which I could banish if only I could utter the right words - but try as I might, I can't make a sound (The last of that type was perhaps 10 years ago).

In a later post this person elaborated (emphasis mine)...

By "demon" I mean a force or invisible presence which threatened me and those I was with (may have been my family - I'm not sure now).
The words I couldn't utter were those of an exorcism - "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to depart" - something like that.

The inability to open my mouth and speak is quite similar to the inability to open my eyes, though the circumstances within the dreams involved are not to be compared.

So here there was an invisible presence. I assume (I didn't confirm this with the dreamer) that by "less pleasant" there was an understandable element of fear involved. The paralysis aspects of the dream--can't speak, can't open eyes--also suggests a bodily state of deep fear. The resolution to the fear according to the dreamer involved invoking the name of Jesus.

So this dream which the dreamer interpreted as a demon but defined more precisely as a "force or invisible presence" fits in with the pattern of the God dream. As it turned out, the resolution to the fear was the invocation of the name of Jesus. As the dreamer did not succeed in stating the necessary words, the dream ended unpleasantly (as I understand). But the pattern suggests that if the dreamer had been able to state the words then another result, release from that fear, might have ensued.

This example is understandably intriguing as it seems to suggest that in the realm of dreams a belief in God is beneficial...even for an atheist! I do not, however, wish to make the argument that the dreamer made the wrong choice here from a dogmatic view but rather that there is something in the psyche which can clothe itself in the language of religion that does require an affirmative response even if that language is, of itself, not correct from the individual's conscious beliefs.

More to come (from the old thread)...

 

[Windwalker]

I am intrigued where this is unfolding to. I have several thoughts at this point which I could share, but I may need to hear where you are going with this before getting too involved in that. In the meantime, this is making me recall a video years ago I watched dealing with Spirituality and the Brain. At the mark this is linked to below, he goes into how the brain experiences fear, and then in extreme cases, such as when facing death, it shunts over to the other part of the brain which unfolds into the experience of God.

I related to this video, as well as your thread in what you are pointing at as I myself had such an experience you could call a "dream", but much more than that. Terror facing death's door blanking out life within, opening to the Infinite, in Absolute Divine Light. Timelessness, Infinity, Love, Grace, Purity. These not uncommon experiences.

I look forward to reading the rest. I hope maybe you'll find some value in what he says, and how he says it. He is not debunking spiritual experience at all, but tying the human brain and spiritual experience together in ways that have a deeper truth than saying "it's all just the brain". His response to that was in effect, that he'd wish everyone did have that experience as it makes them better people.

 

[sealchan]

I am intrigued where this is unfolding to. I have several thoughts at this point which I could share, but I may need to hear where you are going with this before getting too involved in that. In the meantime, this is making me recall a video years ago I watched dealing with Spirituality and the Brain. At the mark this is linked to below, he goes into how the brain experiences fear, and then in extreme cases, such as when facing death, it shunts over to the other part of the brain which unfolds into the experience of God.

I related to this video, as well as your thread in what you are pointing at as I myself had such an experience you could call a "dream", but much more than that. Terror facing death's door blanking out life within, opening to the Infinite, in Absolute Divine Light. Timelessness, Infinity, Love, Grace, Purity. These not uncommon experiences.

I look forward to reading the rest. I hope maybe you'll find some value in what he says, and how he says it. He is not debunking spiritual experience at all, but tying the human brain and spiritual experience together in ways that have a deeper truth than saying "it's all just the brain". His response to that was in effect, that he'd wish everyone did have that experience as it makes them better people.

Thanks for the video, I will definitely check it out.

At this point I am mainly going to be driving my point home through additional examples. The point is mainly that the motifs I listed in the first example are seen in other similar experiences as a set.

In the original posting of this I also made the claim that because of its resemblance to a class of experiences (what some might call anomalous experiences) the story of Abram/Abraham could be seen as sourced in a class of human experience known to the authors of the story. Then we can see that this uncommon human experience is seen as a source of validation (on the part of the authors whether they made up the story or they were recording what they took to be historical biography) for the spiritual character and closeness to God of the Abram/Abraham character. And reciprocally we might also say that if this sort of experience validates Abram/Abraham's spiritual character then too the individual's own experience of this should be seen as a valid Judeo-Christian experience of God and relevant to the knowledge of that faith. The individual who has this experience has then in some fashion a right to claim that he or she has experienced God as Abram/Abraham did.

Without having recognized the connection between Abraham's experience and my own I knew from my experience that in a deep and compelling and subjective way, I was a believer and this experience gives me the "credentials" within the Jewish-Christian tradition to say as much.

 

[tayla]

It contains a theory about the psychologically objective reality of God. It was, perhaps, one of the most amazing experiences I've had in a forum because I not only fully realized how my own experience mutually validates the character of the description of some Biblical God experiences, but I found that my peers in that forum had similar experiences in their own life.

I would trust a "theory" such as this more if there were Ph.D. psychologists and philosophers endorsing it.

I myself have many amazing ideas. I would love to share them with the Ph.D.'s in the appropriate fields. But this is unlikely and I'm not pursuing this.

That said, I am now about to read your OP and hope to get some benefit from it.

 

[sealchan]

Here is the visionary experience of another man as posted in another thread on this forum...

https://youtu.be/mHWv_A_kH2Y

I would like to add that I do not personally endorse the idea that one religion is superior to another. I am sure there are many Christian to Muslim conversions out there to counter this one. God is God and He will do with us what He will.

If you watch this video keep in mind the motifs I have described.

 

[sealchan]

I would trust a "theory" such as this more if there were Ph.D. psychologists and philosophers endorsing it.

I myself have many amazing ideas. I would love to share them with the Ph.D.'s in the appropriate fields. But this is unlikely and I'm not pursuing this.

That said, I am now about to read your OP and hope to get some benefit from it.

I pursued a PhD but in the end I could not find one that closely matched my particular interests well enough. I could have become a physicist or mathematician or cognitive scientist or studied any number of topics. if I started all over again I'm still not sure what I would have studied. If money were not an object I would likely pursue a PhD program in Mythological Studies at the Pacifica Graduate Institute

Pacifica Graduate Institute | Degrees in Psychology and the Humanities

I do have a Master of Arts in Whole Systems Design from Antioch University Seattle.

Sometimes the problems with PhD's is once you earn one you have to be one. The fields and the politics of those fields may actively work against the individual in search of knowledge.

 

[sealchan]

For my final example, a dream from the website of a Christian dream interpreter (I no longer have the url):

I was in New York City staying with several people from The Gathering Place. I knew they were the intercessors. I felt joyful-happy. I knew an attack was coming to the city.

I walk outside through two double glass doors in to the front by a very busy street. Hundreds of people are walking all going the same direction (to the right) to leave the city. I see a very tall Asian man and asking him what is going on. He says an attack is coming so they are all leaving the city.

I think the answer is Jesus. He then says to me the answer is Jesus. I say yes that’s exactly what I was going to say. I tell him that I’m a Christian and I’m here with our church intercessors to pray for the city. That seemed to please him.

Then a women walks up and he turns to her while she whispers in his ear. When he turns back around, he is now a woman. She says the woman needs the prescription stuff for itching. I say what itching where? She keeps pointing to her private parts with her hand crunched up like a claw. I say do you need Chap Stick and point to my lips. She says no and points back to her private area. I finally get it I think she has a yeast infection. I know that you can now buy the medicine in the store without a prescription.

I’m now in the drug store and I see a set of keys and a cell phone laying on a glass counter top. I think someone left them and then realize that a man I see in the store set them there so he could finish shopping. I think I hope she knows it will take at least two days before the itching stops. I thought she must be itching really bad. Wondered if I would have to show her how to use the medicine.

(end of the dream)

Here there is an attack the source of which is unnamed. We do not see the attackers. As such what we take as a stand-in for God is not seen. But the movement of the people leaving the city implies a great fear big enough to move those people.

The resolution of this great fear is clearly stated:

I think the answer is Jesus. He then says to me the answer is Jesus. I say yes that’s exactly what I was going to say. I tell him that I’m a Christian and I’m here with our church intercessors to pray for the city. That seemed to please him.

The resolution to the fear comes with the significant name, Jesus.

The next scene in the dream may seem like a random change, but it just so happens to likely exhibit part of a pattern where the God Dream is more fully developed, or remembered in more detail. The theme of the dream scene seems to be a matter of sexuality and healing. The dreamer seems to exhibit what Freud might call the superego trying desperately to edit the dream while it is being dreamt to make it non-sexual, but, perhaps, with only partial success. I don't personally subscribe to this way of interpreting a dream, but it is descriptive of this particular dreamers dream narrative.

What has astonished me is that in the act of finding my own dream journal entry for my own God Dream, I found that another dream followed it that same night. It was about a sexual encounter with a woman! It may be that these motifs are often linked--a God Dream followed by a dream about sexuality. We might then understand how in Genesis Sarah's fertility becomes an important element of Abraham's own experience of God as being a reflection of this objective psychological dream pattern. The story of Abraham and Sarah IS of a type encountered in the human psychic dream experience.

-----

This concludes the re-posting of the thread posts I did in the other, now no longer existent, forum. Any and all sincere comments are welcome.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The resolution of this great fear is clearly stated:

With non-duality (Advaita Hinduism), I do not know any fear.

 

[sealchan]

With non-duality (Advaita Hinduism), I do not know any fear.

Cool

 

[Muffled]

I believe as far as I can tell I do not have God in my psyche. I have Him in my mind, conscious and subconscious.

 

[Muffled]

Here is the visionary experience of another man as posted in another thread on this forum...

I would like to add that I do not personally endorse the idea that one religion is superior to another. I am sure there are many Christian to Muslim conversions out there to counter this one. God is God and He will do with us what He will.

If you watch this video keep in mind the motifs I have described.

I believe he was in error in a couple of things. First of all Christians are not misguided. We are guided by the Holy Spirit. Second He is wrong that Allah is not God. The fact is that he called out to Allah and got Jesus. It is true the demonic spirits will not leave in the name of Jehovah or Allah but they will in the name of Jesus.. It is true that the Qu'ran talks about what will happen in the final judgment but that does not mean that one can't be saved before that. It is also true that Muslims are misguided about many things in the Qu'ran and they do not have the Holy Spirit as a guide.

 

[Muffled]

With non-duality (Advaita Hinduism), I do not know any fear.

I believe that makes you a fool. I may feel confident God will protect me but I don't step out in front of a speeding car because I rightfully fear being smashed up badly.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that makes you a fool. I may feel confident God will protect me but I don't step out in front of a speeding car because I rightfully fear being smashed up badly.

Of course, I too would not do that. It would certainly be foolishness. But another foolishness is not to take medicines and believe that God or Jesus will cure them. There is no evidence that either God or Jesus grew limbs of amputed persons. Or to think that there is a God, his virgin-born son, soul, heaven, hell, day of judgment, deliverance, etc., in this 21st Century, is nothing short of foolishness. So, be civil, calling some one fool is not civility.

 

[sealchan]

I believe as far as I can tell I do not have God in my psyche. I have Him in my mind, conscious and subconscious.

What is the difference between the psyche and your mind, conscious and subconscious?

 

[sealchan]

I believe he was in error in a couple of things. First of all Christians are not misguided. We are guided by the Holy Spirit. Second He is wrong that Allah is not God. The fact is that he called out to Allah and got Jesus. It is true the demonic spirits will not leave in the name of Jehovah or Allah but they will in the name of Jesus.. It is true that the Qu'ran talks about what will happen in the final judgment but that does not mean that one can't be saved before that. It is also true that Muslims are misguided about many things in the Qu'ran and they do not have the Holy Spirit as a guide.

It is okay for him to be in error in some or many things...it is the sincerity and the honesty of his experience that I think is primary here. I don't think anyone can possibly get God perfectly right. Even the Bible, written as it is by people just like you and me, is not perfect. What actually exists in the experience of humanity on this world is always closer to God than any written work for God is first and foremost, not a name, not a story, not a set of rules, but Being Itself.