The game of Chinese whispers......

[The Reverend Bob]

There will always be some difference in the words, this is true, but that also means that the truth in the teaching will be less powerful, and this leads to fewer people who will be able to gain higher wisdom or enlightenment status. So a reason you see so much negative around some spiritual groups is that some of the essences in the teachings have been lost now.

Buddha did say his teaching would start to decline 500 years after he left the physical realm, so yes even we try our best, it is extremely difficult to enlighten to his teachings today

Like that Jewish parable:

It is told that in every generation there are times when hope threatens to leave this world. At such times, the Baal Shem Tov, the great Jewish mystic, would go into a secret place in the forest. There he would light a special fire and say a holy prayer speaking the long-forgotten most sacred name of God.The danger was averted and hope stayed alive.

In later times when disaster threatened, the Maggid of Mezritch, his disciple, would go to the same place in the forest and say, “Ribono Shel Olam, Master of the Universe, I do not know how to light the fire, but I can say the prayer.”

And again the danger was averted and hope stayed alive.

Still later, his disciple, Moshe Leib of Sasov, would go to the same place in the forest and say, “Ribono Shel Olam, Master of the Universe, I do not know how to light the fire or say the prayer, but I found my way to this place, and that must be enough.” And it was. Hope stayed alive.

And later when Israel of Rizhyn needed intervention from heaven, he sat in his chair with his head in his hands and say, “Ribono Shel Olam, Master of the Universe, I no longer know how to light the fire, nor how to say the prayer, I can’t even find our way to that place, but I can tell the story and that must enough.” And it was.

And it still is. As long as stories are told, hope stays in the world.

 

[Left Coast]

...….in which players form a line, and the first player comes up with a message and whispers it to the ear of the second person in the line. The second player repeats the message to the third player, and so on. When the last player is reached, they announce the message they heard to the entire group. The first person then compares the original message with the final version.

I have played that game many times over the years, it is rare for the last player to repeat word for word the original message. How many of us can actually remember the exact words of a conversation we have had with someone a few days ago, let alone many years later? The gospels were written years after Jesus died, nothing was apparently written down during his lifetime. I maintain it is impossible for the writers to have quoted the exact words he is supposed to have spoken. A religion based on what Jesus was supposed to have done during his lifetime is very dodgy indeed when it was written up so long after he was dead.

Haha it's funny to me that this game is called "Chinese Whispers" in the UK. In the US we call it Telephone.

You make very valid objections to the accuracy of the Gospels. It's also obvious (John's Gospel admits this openly) that they were written to be propaganda intended to convert people to Christianity, not detached, objective eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life.

 

[loverofhumanity]

...….in which players form a line, and the first player comes up with a message and whispers it to the ear of the second person in the line. The second player repeats the message to the third player, and so on. When the last player is reached, they announce the message they heard to the entire group. The first person then compares the original message with the final version.

I have played that game many times over the years, it is rare for the last player to repeat word for word the original message. How many of us can actually remember the exact words of a conversation we have had with someone a few days ago, let alone many years later? The gospels were written years after Jesus died, nothing was apparently written down during his lifetime. I maintain it is impossible for the writers to have quoted the exact words he is supposed to have spoken. A religion based on what Jesus was supposed to have done during his lifetime is very dodgy indeed when it was written up so long after he was dead.

Good point and agreed but there are ways I believe we can verify whether what He said were His Words or not.

Jesus is not the only One though. There is also Buddha and other religions which we only have oral records of.

I believe we can confirm what is true from written and authenticated scripture. In this case the Quran, Writings Of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

The Quran, the Bábí and Baha’i Faiths all have authenticated documents not dependent on the Chinese whisper and all verify the truth of the mission of Jesus. With regards to any discrepancies these are cleared up by Baha’u’llah and also the truth of Buddha and Krishna are verified.

The question then remains is how do we ascertain whether a person who claims to be sent by God is actually the True Educator and not just an ordinary man?

This is a guideline how to determine whether a Prophet is true or not.

The 4 Proofs of a Prophet

One of the requirements is that He must have the answer for the problems of the age He appears in.

And today I believe the most urgent need is acceptance of the oneness of all humanity. That regardless of race, religion or nationality we are one human family. This concept will I am convinced, eliminate all prejudices and reasons for war and forge a world community and world civilisation based on human rights and humanitarian ideals inclusive of all.

This is the solution offered by Baha’u’llah which I believe proves He is from God.

And He confirms the truth of past Educators such as Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Muhammad. There are also things like prophecies that are a proof too but many do not know them.

 

[Koldo]

Good point and agreed but there are ways I believe we can verify whether what He said were His Words or not.

Jesus is not the only One though. There is also Buddha and other religions which we only have oral records of.

I believe we can confirm what is true from written and authenticated scripture. In this case the Quran, Writings Of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

The Quran, the Bábí and Baha’i Faiths all have authenticated documents not dependent on the Chinese whisper and all verify the truth of the mission of Jesus. With regards to any discrepancies these are cleared up by Baha’u’llah and also the truth of Buddha and Krishna are verified.

The question then remains is how do we ascertain whether a person who claims to be sent by God is actually the True Educator and not just an ordinary man?

This is a guideline how to determine whether a Prophet is true or not.

The 4 Proofs of a Prophet

One of the requirements is that He must have the answer for the problems of the age He appears in.

And today I believe the most urgent need is acceptance of the oneness of all humanity. That regardless of race, religion or nationality we are one human family. This concept will I am convinced, eliminate all prejudices and reasons for war and forge a world community and world civilisation based on human rights and humanitarian ideals inclusive of all.

This is the solution offered by Baha’u’llah which I believe proves He is from God.

And He confirms the truth of past Educators such as Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Muhammad. There are also things like prophecies that are a proof too but many do not know them.

I don't think it is significant in any way to set your own standards and then claim you have met them. It is simply much more productive to reach the bar set by others.

 

[Koldo]

...….in which players form a line, and the first player comes up with a message and whispers it to the ear of the second person in the line. The second player repeats the message to the third player, and so on. When the last player is reached, they announce the message they heard to the entire group. The first person then compares the original message with the final version.

I have played that game many times over the years, it is rare for the last player to repeat word for word the original message. How many of us can actually remember the exact words of a conversation we have had with someone a few days ago, let alone many years later? The gospels were written years after Jesus died, nothing was apparently written down during his lifetime. I maintain it is impossible for the writers to have quoted the exact words he is supposed to have spoken. A religion based on what Jesus was supposed to have done during his lifetime is very dodgy indeed when it was written up so long after he was dead.

I think that arguing that the overall message was kept intact is not hard, but yes... any emphasis on specific words seems futile. The odds of it being something different originally would be really huge.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't think it is significant in any way to set your own standards and then claim you have met them. It is simply much more productive to reach the bar set by others.

Isn’t the greatest need of this age unity and to see humanity as equals and as one human family? Isn’t the removal of prejudices and all forms of discrimination the most important requirement for our age?

If there are better standards than the oneness of humanity then I’d like to hear them.

 

[Koldo]

Isn’t the greatest need of this age unity and to see humanity as equals and as one human family? Isn’t the removal of prejudices and all forms of discrimination the most important requirement for our age?

If there are better standards than the oneness of humanity then I’d like to hear them.

I was talking about the requeriments to be considered a prophet.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was talking about the requeriments to be considered a prophet.

I am too. I believe a proof is that the Prophet is able to prescribe the remedy for the ills of the age He appears in and Baha’u’llah has prescribed the oneness of humanity and the unity of the mankind for this age.

 

[Koldo]

I am too. I believe a proof is that the Prophet is able to prescribe the remedy for the ills of the age He appears in and Baha’u’llah has prescribed the oneness of humanity and the unity of the mankind for this age.

I don't think that is sufficient. Nor even necessary.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't think that is sufficient. Nor even necessary.

We have authenticated Writings from 3 different religions confirming the truth of previous religions so even with oral records we can still confirm their truth.

 

[Koldo]

We have authenticated Writings from 3 different religions confirming the truth of previous religions so even with oral records we can still confirm their truth.

Which, even if true, still doesn't count as sufficient in my book.
My bar is really high, but I find it really fair if we are talking about a prophet for any given omnipotent deity.
How about simultaneous worldwide miracles across the globe, like making every amputee regenerate their lost limbs ?
Or how about showing some supreme knowledge by telling the cure to every known disease ?
Actually, if there is some rule about not making too much of a change in the state of affairs then even making literally everyone have the very same dream in the same day would be acceptable for me.
If someone comes around saying he is a prophet for an extraordinary deity, they better do something really extraordinary or there will be no reason for me to believe the claim.

 

[paarsurrey]

...….in which players form a line, and the first player comes up with a message and whispers it to the ear of the second person in the line. The second player repeats the message to the third player, and so on. When the last player is reached, they announce the message they heard to the entire group. The first person then compares the original message with the final version.

I have played that game many times over the years, it is rare for the last player to repeat word for word the original message. How many of us can actually remember the exact words of a conversation we have had with someone a few days ago, let alone many years later? The gospels were written years after Jesus died, nothing was apparently written down during his lifetime. I maintain it is impossible for the writers to have quoted the exact words he is supposed to have spoken. A religion based on what Jesus was supposed to have done during his lifetime is very dodgy indeed when it was written up so long after he was dead.

"I maintain it is impossible for the writers to have quoted the exact words he is supposed to have spoken."

What other religions or world views get affected from it other than Christianity, please? Does it affect Buddhism also, I understand, the present Buddhism (not Buddha) supports Agnosticism. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The game of Chinese whispers......

"I maintain it is impossible for the writers to have quoted the exact words he is supposed to have spoken."

What other religions or world views get affected from it other than Christianity, please? Does it affect Buddhism also, I understand, the present Buddhism (not Buddha) supports Agnosticism. Right, please?

Anybody please

Regards

 

[Jedster]

We have authenticated Writings from 3 different religions confirming the truth of previous religions so even with oral records we can still confirm their truth.

I understand that you sincerely believe this (as I once did), but nevertheless it is all hearsay.

 

[JJ50]

I understand that you sincerely believe this (as I once did), but nevertheless it is all hearsay.

Agreed.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which, even if true, still doesn't count as sufficient in my book.
My bar is really high, but I find it really fair if we are talking about a prophet for any given omnipotent deity.
How about simultaneous worldwide miracles across the globe, like making every amputee regenerate their lost limbs ?
Or how about showing some supreme knowledge by telling the cure to every known disease ?
Actually, if there is some rule about not making too much of a change in the state of affairs then even making literally everyone have the very same dream in the same day would be acceptable for me.
If someone comes around saying he is a prophet for an extraordinary deity, they better do something really extraordinary or there will be no reason for me to believe the claim.

Science is well able to achieve most of the things you suggest but is incapable of uniting the world in peace. World wars 1 and 2 and other conflicts are sufficient proof that the need for peace and unity is critical even more urgent with the proliferation of nuclear weapons. What good would such things do to free the human race from prejudices and hatreds of race, religion and nationality?

Has world peace or unity yet been achieved? If we humans are capable of achieving it why haven’t we?

But Baha’u’llah has succeeded in uniting people from all religions, races and nationalities where others have failed and there is no other political or religious organization in earth which has succeeded in accomplishing this feat.

However Baha’u’llah is.Because He is a Prophet He has established a unique world community comprising a cross section of the entire human race embracing all races, nationalities, religions and cultures living in peace and unity as one.

 

[Koldo]

Science is well able to achieve most of the things you suggest but is incapable of uniting the world in peace. World wars 1 and 2 and other conflicts are sufficient proof that the need for peace and unity is critical even more urgent with the proliferation of nuclear weapons. What good would such things do to free the human race from prejudices and hatreds of race, religion and nationality?

Has world peace or unity yet been achieved? If we humans are capable of achieving it why haven’t we?

But Baha’u’llah has succeeded in uniting people from all religions, races and nationalities where others have failed and there is no other political or religious organization in earth which has succeeded in accomplishing this feat.

However Baha’u’llah is.Because He is a Prophet He has established a unique world community comprising a cross section of the entire human race embracing all races, nationalities, religions and cultures living in peace and unity as one.

If science can eventually achieve anything I have suggested it is up to debate, but it is still completely and utterly out of reach right now. So at least for now, that's where I am setting the bar.

Regarding uniting people, I am afraid to tell you that Baha’u’llah merely came up with yet another religion. He didn't unite people in any significant way whatsoever. He didn't achieve anything significant.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If science can eventually achieve anything I have suggested it is up to debate, but it is still completely and utterly out of reach right now. So at least for now, that's where I am setting the bar.

Regarding uniting people, I am afraid to tell you that Baha’u’llah merely came up with yet another religion. He didn't unite people in any significant way whatsoever. He didn't achieve anything significant.

He is uniting people. And His teachings and principles are being adopted worldwide. What do you think the universal declaration on human rights is about? - the equality and oneness of all people which Baha’u’llah taught long before the UN existed.

In this age of Baha’u’llah Who said the time for acceptance of all humanity as one has come, why do you think things like apartyrid have been disassembled and racism even in sport has been outlawed? In the past blacks and women didn’t have the vote but the teachings of oneness from Baha’u’llah are sweeping away all these injustices and prejudices.

Before Baha’u’llah announced the oneness of religion interfaith wasn’t heard if, neither was multiculturalism. Over a century ago He said ‘the earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ signalising the advent of world citizenship. How interesting that EEU citizenship enables Europe travel and thus is a step towards world citizenship.

There are too many proofs that Baha’u’llah’s Vision and teachings have captivated the hearts of all people. There is not a town, hamlet, city or village on earth which has not been influenced by His teachings on the oneness of all people.

People just don’t want to give Him credit for it because of bias and prejudice but these teachings originate from Him.

 

[Koldo]

He is uniting people. And His teachings and principles are being adopted worldwide. What do you think the universal declaration on human rights is about? - the equality and oneness of all people which Baha’u’llah taught long before the UN existed.

In this age of Baha’u’llah Who said the time for acceptance of all humanity as one has come, why do you think things like apartyrid have been disassembled and racism even in sport has been outlawed? In the past blacks and women didn’t have the vote but the teachings of oneness from Baha’u’llah are sweeping away all these injustices and prejudices.

Before Baha’u’llah announced the oneness of religion interfaith wasn’t heard if, neither was multiculturalism. Over a century ago He said ‘the earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens’ signalising the advent of world citizenship. How interesting that EEU citizenship enables Europe travel and thus is a step towards world citizenship.

There are too many proofs that Baha’u’llah’s Vision and teachings have captivated the hearts of all people. There is not a town, hamlet, city or village on earth which has not been influenced by His teachings on the oneness of all people.

People just don’t want to give Him credit for it because of bias and prejudice but these teachings originate from Him.

Sorry but that is way too little for a prophet. To be influential is something that any regular human can achieve.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sorry but that is way too little for a prophet. To be influential is something that any regular human can achieve.

You are after something superstitious not that which will benefit the entire human race.