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The Future of the Left ???

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
***at request I'm reposting this OP for everyone to reply to. Enjoy! ;)***

Hey everyone,

Today is Trump's inaugeration day. For those who voted for him I hope you enjoy the moment. If it works out- that would be good too. (I think you know I'm not optimistic but hey.. Its your day to party).

donald-trump-trademarked-a-ronald-reagan-slogan-and-would-like-to-stop-other-republicans-from-using-it.jpg


I think Trump's presidency will have lasting global consequences and marks a global crisis of the left (at least in europe and north america anyway). I don't think its terminal and I don't think there is a unbridgable gulf between the right and left at the grassroots offline or on the forums- though it will feel like that from time to time. Either way Its going to be a long four years and it makes sense to try to be constructive rather than needlessly partisan.

So I wanted to ask what you think "the left"(however you wish to define it):

1) has got so wrong to reach this point of crisis? Do you agree that it is in crisis?

2) needs to do to become politically viable or attractive again?

3) may have actually got somethings right that they need to pursue more aggressively?

4) can find any common ground for action on climate change? Or do you believe it is a politically motivated hoax/conspiracy?
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
1) has got so wrong to reach this point of crisis? Do you agree that it is in crisis?
They really shook the confidence of their base when the DNC snuffed Sanders. It seemed apparent that he was the candidate that not only had the best opportunity to win the election, but also represented the more progressive stance of the upcoming democrats. When they did they, they alienated many of their 35 and under voters.

2) needs to do to become politically viable or attractive again?
This is hard to say, but is Trump has illustrated anything, it is that the population is tired of politics as usual. If they really want to be more attractive, they need to break their mold. Hillary was corrupt. The DNC needs to take a good, hard look at themselves and promote a candidate that is genuine. Further, they need to be more vocal/supportive of initiatives that promote peace on a global scale.

3) may have actually got somethings right that they need to pursue more aggressively?
They were on the right track with universal healthcare. Good news is so many people use it now, that a replacement will be needed if it is taken away. That is a fight worth fighting for.

4) can find any common ground for action on climate change? Or do you believe it is a politically motivated hoax/conspiracy?
I find this to be a credible concern, so no comment here. :D
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Rejection of religious rhetoric
Can you expand, please? I am interested in this perspective.

refusing to acknowledge the emerging right as a legitimate consistent political stance.
Does this happen any more than the right on the left? Seems like both sides might be guilty of this one.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... Its going to be a long four years and it makes sense to try to be constructive rather than needlessly partisan.
Rather than normalizing the presidency of a vulgar nativist and pathological liar, I choose to be constructively partisan.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
The future of the Left is that if you keep turning left, you'll eventually be right...or at least right back where you were when you started.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
The future of the Left is that if you keep turning left, you'll eventually be right...or at least right back where you were when you started.
What are some specifics about the platform the left champions that you think is incorrect or don't agree with? For clarity, when I am say the left I typically use this term to refer what the Democratic Party uses as platforms to win election cycles.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
So I wanted to ask what you think "the left"(however you wish to define it):

1) has got so wrong to reach this point of crisis? Do you agree that it is in crisis?

I think it has gotten more than one thing wrong to reach this point, and yes, I think this is a crisis at least insofar as the left now has a very diminished hold on governmental powers. Going from having the presidency to losing it and being a minority in Congress is by no means a small loss at all, and it may have effects that can last for years from now, in my opinion.

Some of the mistakes I think the left has made:

• Becoming disconnected from reality in more than one way and instead clinging to an idealistic, black-and-white view of certain cultural and political affairs to the point where the demagoguery of Trump and people like him managed to win more votes than the left's unrealistic approach to some issues.

For instance, dismissing all concerns about immigrants from certain countries as "bigotry" or "xenophobia" without considering that said concerns might have some merit strikes me as reactionary and hasty at best. Yes, there is generally a lot of bigotry and xenophobia in conservative politicians' rhetoric, but that doesn't mean there is no truth whatsoever to anything conservatives have to say about immigration.

One example is saying that certain cultures have strong incompatibilities with values of freedom, equality, and free expression. I've seen some conservatives say this, and I absolutely agree with them: some cultures are at odds with many Western societies regarding these issues, and dismissal of such concerns as "xenophobia" or "cultural supremacism" is not just short-sighted but also the kind of unrealistic thinking that could alienate many voters who may not necessarily be supportive of conservatism but vote for conservatives anyway after having their concerns casually dismissed like that.

• Adopting a reactionary approach in some cases, to the point where a warmonger like Hillary Clinton was praised by many leftists as an example of a "strong woman" in a way that suggests she's admirable despite her track record—and why? Mainly because she was running against Trump. Something I read a while back has come to mind more than once over the last election: "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. He or she may just be my ally."

And this kind of reactionism extends to other issues. For example, because many White people are racists, we have seen things like these:

lean.jpg

I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. The dismissal makes it sound like Islam is not a religion that can be studied by anyone regardless of race or anything else. It's not like Islamic texts are written in invisible ink that everyone can read except White people. This kind of baseless, reactionary argument takes the racism of many White people and turns it into a springboard for dismissal of opinions without having to actually present a detailed argument against them. Replace "white" with "black" or "Arab" in the above picture and it should be obvious how blatantly racist and casually dismissive it is.

As an Arab, I see absolutely nothing wrong with a White person's—or anyone else's—criticism of Arab culture as long as it is accompanied by a reasoned, detailed argument, regardless of whether or not said criticism also involves Islam. But what do we see from some liberals like Mr. Nathan Lean? Reactionary dismissal and reverse bigotry even if some of us, some of the critics, are Arabs and have extensive experience with Islamic traditions and with Muslims.

And this brings me to another huge issue with the left:

• Refusal or failure to see the problems present within certain religious ideologies, mainly mainstream strains of Islam, and instead insisting that strong criticism of the religion is "bigotry" and "Islamophobia," a term that has been used by so many liberals and religious fanatics alike to shut down criticism of Islam and conflate it with bigotry against Muslims as people as if ideas and people were entitled to the same level of respect.

These are quotes from Hillary Clinton, then Secretary of State in Obama's administration, talking about the Innocence of Muslims video after the murder of the American ambassador in Libya:

The United States government had absolutely nothing to do with this video. We absolutely reject its content and message.

To us, to me personally, this video is disgusting and reprehensible. It appears to have a deeply cynical purpose: to denigrate a great religion and to provoke rage.

An ambassador gets murdered over a video, and one of her primary reactions was the above. I'm not sure if a government is supposed to take anything but a neutral stance on content whose expression is clearly protected by the law, yet the Secretary of State issued such an excessively politically correct, apologetic statement instead of taking a strong stand against the underlying problem, which is the same kind of Islamic extremism that has led to other attacks on satirists. This refusal to clearly condemn Islamic extremism for what it is has been, in my opinion, one of the factors that has led to the rise of Trump, especially since he engages in demagoguery and exaggerates legitimate concerns to further his own agendas.

What Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration refused to address in no uncertain terms, Trump has taken to a hyperbolic level and used as leverage for his campaign—and it seems to have worked in his favor so far.

2) needs to do to become politically viable or attractive again?

I think that since all of the above problems have definitely allowed Trump to hold more and more sway on voters to the point where he's now about to be inaugurated as president, the left doesn't just need to be more realistic; it needs to eliminate the reactionary, irrationally idealistic and dismissive aspects of its current outlook on social and political affairs, be they inside or outside the U.S. So less unnecessary political correctness, a more rational and critical approach to criticism of certain religions and cultures in general, and a willingness to see the positives in other spots on the political spectrum.

Those are the primary factors that the left needs to work on in order to be more politically viable, in my opinion, but I wouldn't say they were the only ones. To list all of the necessary factors would require a small book rather than a forum post, not to mention that I can't really say whether I would be missing other potential factors as well. :D

3) may have actually got somethings right that they need to pursue more aggressively?

Yes, absolutely: support for LGBT rights, women's rights, minorities' rights in general, affordable health care, minimum wages, and better sex education. These are the main ones I can think of at the moment, but they are so significant that I think the left definitely has the potential to come back strong and hold power in the future.

4) can find any common ground for action on climate change? Or do you believe it is a politically motivated hoax/conspiracy?

I'm not familiar enough with the details of either side's political stances on climate change, so I can't comment here.
 
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Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
I think it has gotten more than one thing wrong to reach this point, and yes, I think this is a crisis at least insofar as the left now has a very diminished hold on governmental powers. Going from having the presidency to losing it and being a minority in Congress is by no means a small loss at all, and it may have effects that can last for years from now, in my opinion.

Some of the mistakes I think the left has made:

• Becoming disconnected from reality in more than one way and instead clinging to an idealistic, black-and-white view of certain cultural and political affairs to the point where the demagoguery of Trump and people like him managed to win more votes than the left's unrealistic approach to some issues.

For instance, dismissing all concerns about immigrants from certain countries as "bigotry" or "xenophobia" without considering that said concerns might have some merit strikes me as reactionary and hasty at best. Yes, there is generally a lot of bigotry and xenophobia in conservative politicians' rhetoric, but that doesn't mean there is no truth whatsoever to anything conservatives have to say about immigration.

One example is saying that certain cultures have strong incompatibilities with values of freedom, equality, and free expression. I've seen some conservatives say this, and I absolutely agree with them: some cultures are at odds with many Western societies regarding these issues, and dismissal of such concerns as "xenophobia" or "cultural supremacism" is not just short-sighted but also the kind of unrealistic thinking that could alienate many voters who may not necessarily be supportive of conservatism but vote for conservatives anyway after having their concerns casually dismissed like that.

• Adopting a reactionary approach in some cases, to the point where a warmonger like Hillary Clinton was praised by many leftists as an example of a "strong woman" in a way that suggests she's admirable despite her track record—and why? Mainly because she was running against Trump. Something I read a while back has come to mind more than once over the last election: "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. He or she may just be my ally."

And this kind of reactionism extends to other issues. For example, because many White people are racists, we have seen things like these:

lean.jpg

I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. The dismissal makes it sound like Islam is not a religion that can be studied by anyone regardless of race or anything else. It's not like Islamic texts are written in invisible ink that everyone can read except White people. This kind of baseless, reactionary argument takes the racism of many White people and turns it into a springboard for dismissal of opinions without having to actually present a detailed argument against them. Replace "white" with "black" or "Arab" in the above picture and it should be obvious how blatantly racist and casually dismissive it is.

As an Arab, I see absolutely nothing wrong with a White person's—or anyone else's—criticism of Arab culture as long as it is accompanied by a reasoned, detailed argument, regardless of whether or not said criticism also involves Islam. But what do we see from some liberals like Mr. Nathan Lean? Reactionary dismissal and reverse bigotry even if some of us, some of the critics, are Arabs and have extensive experience with Islamic traditions and with Muslims.

And this brings me to another huge issue with the left:

• Refusal or failure to see the problems present within certain religious ideologies, mainly mainstream strains of Islam, and instead insisting that strong criticism of the religion is "bigotry" and "Islamophobia," a term that has been used by so many liberals and religious fanatics alike to shut down criticism of Islam and conflate it with bigotry against Muslims as people as if ideas and people were entitled to the same level of respect.

These are quotes from Hillary Clinton, then Secretary of State in Obama's administration, talking about the Innocence of Muslims video after the murder of the American ambassador in Libya.





An ambassador gets murdered over a video, and one of her primary reactions was the above. I'm not sure if a government is supposed to take anything but a neutral stance on content whose expression is clearly protected by the law, yet the Secretary of State issued such an excessively politically correct, apologetic statement instead of taking a strong stand against the underlying problem, which is the same kind of Islamic extremism that has led to other attacks on satirists. This refusal to clearly condemn Islamic extremism for what it is has been, in my opinion, one of the factors that has led to the rise of Trump, especially since he engages in demagoguery and exaggerates legitimate concerns to further his own agendas.

What Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration refused to address in no uncertain terms, Trump has taken to a hyperbolic level and used as leverage for his campaign—and it seems to have worked in his favor so far.



I think that since all of the above problems have definitely allowed Trump to hold more and more sway on voters to the point where he's now about to be inaugurated as president, the left doesn't just need to be more realistic; it needs to eliminate the reactionary, irrationally idealistic and dismissive aspects of its current outlook on social and political affairs, be they inside or outside the U.S. So less unnecessary political correctness, a more rational and critical approach to criticism of certain religions and cultures in general, and a willingness to see the positives in other spots on the political spectrum.

Those are the primary factors that the left needs to work on in order to be more politically viable, in my opinion, but I wouldn't say they were the only ones. To list all of the necessary factors would require a small book rather than a forum post, not to mention that I can't really say whether I would be missing other potential factors as well. :D



Yes, absolutely: support for LGBT rights, women's rights, minorities' rights in general, affordable health care, minimum wages, and better sex education. These are the main ones I can think of at the moment, but they are so significant that I think the left definitely has the potential to come back strong and hold power in the future.



I'm not familiar enough with the details of either side's political stances on climate change, so I can't comment here.
EXCELLENT post. Saving for later!
 
1) has got so wrong to reach this point of crisis? Do you agree that it is in crisis?

2) needs to do to become politically viable or attractive again?

In America at least (Europe is a very different case):

The Dems would have won the election if 30,000 or so people in 3 key states had voted the other way, and they comfortably won the popular vote. They did this with a giant Hillary shaped millstone tied around their necks.

There are countless ways you can criticise them and numerous things that are problematic and worrying, but how can this be considered a crisis, or how are they not politically viable?

Wasn't but a few months ago that people were predicting the terminal decline into irrelevancy of the Pubs after all, and had those 30,000 voted differently people would now be discussing the 'crisis' of the right.

People always gonna overreact to things like this...
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
What are some specifics about the platform the left champions that you think is incorrect or don't agree with? For clarity, when I am say the left I typically use this term to refer what the Democratic Party uses as platforms to win election cycles.

I view abortion as murdering an unborn child. No I will not be debating about this.
 
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Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
In America at least (Europe is a very different case):

The Dems would have won the election if 30,000 or so people in 3 key states had voted the other way, and they comfortably won the popular vote. They did this with a giant Hillary shaped millstone tied around their necks.

There are countless ways you can criticise them and numerous things that are problematic and worrying, but how can this be considered a crisis, or how are they not politically viable?

Wasn't but a few months ago that people were predicting the terminal decline into irrelevancy of the Pubs after all, and had those 30,000 voted differently people would now be discussing the 'crisis' of the right.

People always gonna overreact to things like this...

This.

The democratic party's only crisis here is that a specific human being carrying deacades of baggage thought she could pull it off, and didn't.

I'm happy to recognie Trump's win through the electoral college, but this lack of voter mandate, and his extremely low numbers, bode well for future elections.

This is that moment where the water recedes from the beach. Is this low tide for liberal ideals, or the gathering of water for the tidal wave of American voters coming to clean house for the things we care about: income inequality, education, health care, climate change, safety nets for families (especially children), consumer advocacy. . . You get the idea.

There is no crisis. There is only the need for a candidate who is not afraid to be liberal.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Don't worry @Laika,
Polarity is a necessary part of life.
The left will not disappear.:)
The sad part is that we over here on the other side of the pond can't get a grip on the Law of Rhythm.
We are like a pendulum swinging from extreme to extreme.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
IMO the alt-left lost in this cycle because they didn't focus on or demonstrate care for the core issues that involve ordinary, every day life for the ordinary individual: safe, comfortable neighborhoods and homes, fair employment, and leaving us the heck alone without trying to constantly reprogram us regarding different social issues.

I think Trump successfully addressed those core issues, whereas the RINOs made the same mistake the alt-left did.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
1) has got so wrong to reach this point of crisis? Do you agree that it is in crisis?
It's not a crisis, so some are overreacting to this.

2) needs to do to become politically viable or attractive again?
We need to return to what we traditionally stood for, namely to help the common person, which Hillary did a lousy job doing.

4) can find any common ground for action on climate change? Or do you believe it is a politically motivated hoax/conspiracy?
That depends more on what the Republicans and Trump decide to do, but this is one area whereas I am not at all optimistic.
 
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