The French Presidential Elections and Lack of Realistic Options

[Debater Slayer]

He is actually quite good in many respects, but has recently been trying to cover his slow start to the fight against covid, perhaps he's using muslims to divert attention.

I wish there were a candidate retaining Macron's best qualities without the major and potentially dealbreaking flaws of being opportunistic and overly restrictive toward Muslim communities. Stoking the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment is markedly irresponsible and unbecoming of a leader who should try to contain the situation and foster unity against terrorists instead.

 

[ChristineM]

I wish there were a candidate retaining Macron's best qualities without the major and potentially dealbreaking flaws of being opportunistic and overly restrictive toward Muslim communities. Stoking the flames of anti-Muslim sentiment is markedly irresponsible and unbecoming of a leader who should try to contain the situation and foster unity against terrorists instead.

Im not really sure he is stoking anti Muslim sentiment but rather anti terror sentiment. He is strong on the french idea of laicité (secularism). Also he's been misreported in some quaters. What he's asking for is for muslims to embrace republican values, muslim press are reporting this as pressure against islam.

 

[Secret Chief]

Its splintered, there are so many left wing parties that few have a big enough following to offer a candidate. And those that do generally are offering more than one candidate.

Huh, sounds like the UK - there needs to be a progressive alliance to oust the tories. Labour need to buy into that but I'm not sure they will.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Im not really sure he is stoking anti Muslim sentiment but rather anti terror sentiment. He is strong on the french idea of laicité (secularism). Also he's been misreported in some quaters. What he's asking for is for muslims to embrace republican values, muslim press are reporting this as pressure against islam.

Between things like the burkini ban, increasing restrictions on wearing the hijab, and Macron's response to the cartoons where he failed to adopt a level-headed response (while upholding seculariam, of course), I don't think he has handled Muslim-related affairs well at all. Even among other secular European countries, France seems especially restrictive in multiple ways.

 

[ChristineM]

Huh, sounds like the UK - there needs to be a progressive alliance to oust the tories. Labour need to buy into that but I'm not sure they will.

There's communist, two or three socialisy a couple of ecology parties all pretending the others dont exist

 

[Secret Chief]

There's communist, two or three socialisy a couple of ecology parties all pretending the others dont exist

Eejits.

 

[ChristineM]

Between things like the burkini ban, increasing restrictions on wearing the hijab, and Macron's response to the cartoons where he failed to adopt a level-headed response (while upholding seculariam, of course), I don't think he has handled Muslim-related affairs well at all. Even among other secular European countries, France seems especially restrictive in multiple ways.

France is a long way from restrictive, on the contrary, quite the opposite, they fought a revolution for their values and freedoms and guard them jealously.

The facial covering ban was down to Sarkozy and has been brewing for 30 or more years before being put into law. France is not the only country to implement such a ban, but france gets the flac for it.

Macrons response to the murders of several people reflect the french ethos. Muslims want to change the freedoms of france they are going the wrong way about it by shooting journalists and beheading teachers.

 

[Debater Slayer]

France is a long way from restrictive, on the contrary, quite the opposite, they fought a revolution for their values and freedoms and guard them jealously.

The facial covering ban was down to Sarkozy and has been brewing for 30 or more years before being put into law. France is not the only country to implement such a ban, but france gets the flac for it.

Macrons response to the murders of several people reflect the french ethos. Muslims want to change the freedoms of france they are going the wrong way about it by shooting journalists and beheading teachers.

I was talking about the burkini, not the burqa or niqab (face covering). France's restrictions on hijab/the Islamic headscarf in some settings are also another focal point in the whole discussion about the status of religious freedoms in the country.

I don't think any reasonable person opposes vocal criticism of terrorism and violent extremism. My point is that Macron could have still strongly opposed these and taken measures against them while being less inflammatory and more diplomatic than he was in some of his comments.

Still, if it's only Macron and Le Pen who end up facing off in the presidential election, I think he would do a lot less damage than she would. She seems to be on a whole different level of venomous demagoguery.

 

[Kooky]

The facial covering ban was down to Sarkozy and has been brewing for 30 or more years before being put into law. France is not the only country to implement such a ban, but france gets the flac for it.

Plenty of other countries have gotten flak for it, at least by yours truly.
France is not special when it comes to the spread of ethnophobic demagoguery, I agree.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What is happening with the left? Is it splintered? Or...?

It's never been homogeneous or monolithic.

 

[Sirona]

It's been 20 years now but I studied in Montpellier for almost a year. As I was short on my dough, I had to live in a banlieue . I found the contrast between university and "home" to be very stark. Veil ban on one side, >90% Muslim immigrant poppulation on the other side. If you're born in a banlieue, you're stuck there forever, with companies refusing even to look at your job application when they see where you live. In comparison to German (main part of) society, which is strictly against racism due to having lost the war, in France, "freedom of speech" is much more "open" to racism. Some people told racist jokes when on the pilgrimage bus back from Lourdes. When I was there, it was accepted to make racisr statements to distringuish yourself from "them", to show you're French (and white). I also visited a small town whose name I've forgotten, which had 1/3 Muslim population. On that day, there was a parade for the feast of some Catholic saint. It was a bit odd, when I was there there were two different cultures, like oil and water, that didn't mix. Like I said, this was 20 years ago, but that's how I experienced it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Plenty of other countries have gotten flak for it, at least by yours truly.
France is not special when it comes to the spread of ethnophobic demagoguery, I agree.

Muslim countries even ban it. That's not ethnophobic anything but a realization that somethings are explicitly related to extremist ideologies, such as the burka.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I read that before starting this thread. It didn't answer my questions because, despite the number of candidates, the article I linked seems to indicate that only two or three at most have any real chance of winning the election.

That's why I drew a comparison between that situation and the U.S. election: there were multiple candidates who pretty much everyone knew were going to lose to either Trump or Biden. It was basically an illusion of choice.

The French two-round system is different to the US FPTP one, but ultimately it encourages much of the same binary results. Plenty of French people will vote for all sorts of different parties in the first round (I would imagine) but the second round of voting will be a straight battle between Le Pen and Macron.

Strategically (if not morally) Macron's positioning in the centre makes sense. Unless there is a single, coherent left-wing party to promote at least a shift in centrist policy, he's really trying to be left-enough to not lose all progressive votes in the second round, and centrist enough to take much of the contested middle ground from Le Pen.

If you're worried about the right wing influence, though, read up on Eric Zemmour.

 

[Mock Turtle]

In my experience, the difference isn't really a "major" one in practical terms.

When people talk about misgivings over Islam as a religion, it is frequently being framed as misgivings over the presence of Muslim populations, or vice versa, and most anti-Islam policies are de facto detrimental to individual Muslims, but not religious institutions, or even harmful cultural practices. (See e.g. European bans of face coverings and similar dresscodes, which are enacted to the detriment of the same women they are supposedly freeing from Islamic oppression)

One issue with dress codes perhaps, especially where any Muslim females will be dressed more conservatively in any country where they tend to be immigrants, is that the Muslims there might be seen as being an appropriate population for terrorists to arise from or be hidden within, whereas any population where Muslims don't dress so and more like all the rest will not be seen so, even if this is just not true. So it is understandable that many will not feel as safe in their society when they seemingly have many within such who might have opposing aims than the majority. I have noticed this in a few cities in the UK for example, where Muslims often appear as integrated as most others in some but in others they just don't. How can one allay the fears of some when they just can't trust others?

 

[Kooky]

One issue with dress codes perhaps, especially where any Muslim females will be dressed more conservatively in any country where they tend to be immigrants, is that the Muslims there might be seen as being an appropriate population for terrorists to arise from or be hidden within, whereas any population where Muslims don't dress so and more like all the rest will not be seen so, even if this is just not true. So it is understandable that many will not feel as safe in their society when they seemingly have many within such who might have opposing aims than the majority. I have noticed this in a few cities in the UK for example, where Muslims often appear as integrated as most others in some but in others they just don't. How can one allay the fears of some when they just can't trust others?

I agree, xenophobia seems to be a major problem all across Europe.