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Featured The free will argument

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by leroy, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Premise 1 if God doesn't exist there wouldn't be creatures with free will

    Premise 2 there are creatures with free will

    Therefore God exists


    So if you are an Atheist, agnostic, non theist etc. Which premise would you deny 1 or 2?


    *with free will I simply mean "the hability to descide" for example desciding between eating a healthy salad or a hamburger would be an example of free will.
     
  2. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    By "God," do you mean the Christian God?
     
  3. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I would deny that choosing between healthy salad and a hamburger has anything to do with free will. So I would deny P2 and that is irrespective of P1. Free will are also claimed by non-religious people.
     
  4. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    I would attack both premises. So, let's start with the first.

    Let us assume that creatures with free will (whose definition and scope we assume known) exist,
    how do you infer from that fact that God exists?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    1. Doesn't follow.
    2. Unsupported.

    Is God omniscient? If so, He knows the future. If He knows the future, the future is predetermined.
    QED?o_O
     
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  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Premise 1 makes no sense except to people who have little idea what free will actually represents

    Atheists decide using free will not to worship any god, usually because of complete lack of any evidence for any gods existence.

    Atheist will decide using free will what they choose to eat

    So how about premise #3

    3. If anyone can provide falsifiable evidence for any gods existence and that said god or gods issue free will on order to have people worship them then maybe you will have a point.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The existence nor non-existence of free-will cannot be equated to whether God exists or not. There possibly exists a degree of free will naturally.

    Therefor the rest does not logically follow.

    Yes. the atheist can deny premise one easily. I can do it to as a theist.

    Not a good example to demonstrate free will.
     
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  8. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    So technically, you deny both premises because you denied free will.
     
  9. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yes, but I started with #2.
     
  10. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Both are unsupported. Shunyadragon explained it so I'll skip the redundancy.

    * residency should be redundancy.
     
    #10 night912, Jul 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  11. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    No, you started with free will, regardless of either premises.
     
  12. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

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    So in fact "god" gave all creatures a free will to be eaten or to flight away?
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Okay, you are right.
     
  14. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily, because p2 excludes the certainty of all creatures or just some.
     
  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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  16. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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  17. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Premise 1 seems quite unlikely. What does the presence of free will have to do with the existence of a God?

    Premise 2 is mostly problematic because I have never seen a sensible definition of the term 'free will'.
     
  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    You can't see a definition. You can subjectively make sense of it. Learn to describe what you actually do.
     
  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Considering that there is no way to examine and evaluate whether creatures have free will or not, I wouldn't come to a conclusion on either premise. Either way, we certainly act and feel as if we make choices and that is all that matters.
     
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  20. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yeah, free will is an illusion, that works if you believe in it. IMHO
     
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