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Featured The four things that turned Islam into a religion mixed with so much lies and falsehood by believers

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Link, Dec 4, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    There is four things that occur:

    1. Hadiths are attributed to the Prophet (s) or his successors (a) that are not proven in Quran through reasoning and imposed often upon the Quran (cancel verses out or verses are ignored).
    2. Quranic interpretation occurs without verification in hadiths, which would mean Prophet (s) and his successors (a) left religion and Quran unexplained.
    3. Truth is denied if someone neither sees it in Quran nor Sunnah, and just denies it being in Quran out of pure ignorance and doesn't see that it's possible it's in Quran after Quran says to contain an explanation to all things pertaining to guidance of humanity.
    4. We trust scholars to represent Quran and Sunnah and delegate authority to them even if their methodology contradicts truth and logic and Quran and Sunnah.
     
    #1 Link, Dec 4, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
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  2. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Religion tends to be highly "eye of the beholder" given there's a serious absence of any God keeping the believers on the straight and correct path.
     
  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    This is true of all false religions including Islam in it's current state, however the true religion from God and true way of submission occurs through the light of his face, and both Quran and Ahlulbayt become united through the light of the leader of the time connecting the two sources of teachings together.
     
  4. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Except those who claim to have the true religion is everyone else, too. Arguably all religion is false. And it is all true. There is no ultimate authority that comes forth to settle it. So human conflict continues.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Amir al-mu’minin said in disparagement of the differences of view among the theologians



    When1 a problem is put before anyone of them he passes judgement on it from his imagination. When exactly the same problem is placed before another of them he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their Allah is One (and the same), their Prophet is one (and the same), their Book (the Qur’an) is one (and the same)!

    Is it that Allah ordered them to differ and they obeyed Him? Or He prohibited them from it but they disobeyed Him? Or (is it that) Allah sent an incomplete Faith and sought their help to complete it? Or they are His partners in the affairs, so that it is their share of duty to pronounce and He has to agree? Or is it that Allah the Glorified sent a perfect faith but the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over (to the people)? The fact is that Allah the Glorified says:

    We have not neglected anything in the Book (Qur’an) . . . (6:38),

    and in it is a ‘clarification of everything’2 And He says that one part of the Qur’an verifies another part and that there is no divergence in it as He says:

    .And if it had been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepancy. (4:82)

    Certainly the outside of the Qur’an is wonderful and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its intricacies cannot be cleared except through itself.



    My Comment: In this regard Imam Ali makes it clear that the Quran has not left an issue of guidance out. Everything pertaining to guidance can be found therein. He further emphasizes, that, it’s intricacies cannot be cleared except through itself. There is points we don’t see in Quran, and things that are unclear, but all that will be clarified through Quran.

    One may ask, if Quran is sufficient, why do we need Ahlulbayt? And this is a secret only believers witness, the complimentary nature of the traditions of the family of Mohammad with Quran.

    The traditions of Ahlulbayt (as) are supposed to be guiding ways to perceive and compliment the Quran. They are suppose to gain insights and the whole Shariah and the words of Ahlulbayt (as) always keep in mind Quran.

    Hadiths are also necessary "as did the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over". This means nothing is left but found in the Sunnah as well.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Reflect over the sermon of Imam Ali (a).

    If God wants to guide, it would be the fault of people, not God's guidance. The first thing is we have to understand how to approach Quran and Sunnah.
     
  7. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Al Kafi H 128, Ch. 16, h 5


    Ali ibn Ibrahim in a marfu’ manner has narrated from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

    "The seekers of knowledge are of three kinds. The more noticeable of them in person or character are: (a) the group who seeks knowledge for ignorance and quarrel

    (b) The group who seeks knowledge to dominate and cheat others.

    (c) The group who seeks knowledge for proper understanding, Fiqh, and power of intelligence.

    The group whose purpose of seeking knowledge is ignorance and quarrel is a harmful and quarrelsome group. This group interrupts conversations in the gatherings of the people to speak about knowledge and the description of forbearance.

    Such people appear in the garb of the gentle and humble ones but, in fact, are devoid of all the qualities of the pious people. Allah has humiliated and has condemned this group. The group that seeks domination and cheating is a deceitful and flattering group. Such people try to dominate people of their kind and flatter the wealthy ones who know less than they do. Such people consume the sweetmeat of the rich people and destroy their own religion. May Allah banish the news of such people and cut off their traces from the history of the scholars.

    "The group that seeks knowledge for the sake of Fiqh, proper understanding, and to gain the power of intelligence consists of people who are deeply concerned and stay awake very often. They pull their robe on their heads and standup for prayer in the darkness of nights.

    They work hard anxiously and fearfully and pray with deep worries. They are very attentive of their affairs, knowledgeable of the people of their time and fearful even of their own trusted brothers.

    May Allah strengthen the corners of such people and grant them salvation on the Day of Judgment."
     
  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It has been narrated from Imam Ja’far Al Sadiq (a.s.): ‘There will be people who will be ever ready to issue Fatwas and they will also make the claim that whatever need to be questioned should be referred to them although they may not be able to explain a single word correctly. Allah (s.w.t.) does NOT befriend such self-made people’. - AL KHISAL Page 86.



    AL KAFI - H 96, Ch. 11, h2

    Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Yunus ibn 'Abd al-Rahman from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Hajjaj who has said the following: “Imam abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, once said to me, ‘Beware of two forms of behaviour. It is such behaviours that have led many people to their destruction. Beware of giving fatwa to people on the basis of your own opinion and of following a religion without knowledge.’”
     
  9. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    It's not working. Plus the most fervent claim to be guided by God, which only makes them less tolerant and judgmental of others.

    So the buck stops with the Creator as it made people, and made these religions without adequate oversight. .
     
  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Narrated from Prophet (pbu) :when comes a hadith from me refer it to book of Allah if it was agreeing with it so accept it , and it was against it throw it to width of wall

    Tusi ,Tabarsi Majma'ul bayan fi tafsir Qur'an v1 p39

    2. «اذا أتاکم عنّی حدیث فاعرضوه على کتاب الله و حجّة عقولکم فان وافقهما فاقبلوه و الّا فاضربوا به عرض الجدار»؛

    when comes a hadith from me refer it to book of Allah & reasoning of your minds if it was agreeing with it so accept it , and it was against it throw it to width of wall

    إِنَّ عَلَى کُلِّ حَقٍّ حَقِیقَةً وَ عَلَى کُلِّ صَوَابٍ نُوراً فَمَا وَافَقَ کِتَابَ اللهِ فَخُذُوهُ وَ مَا خَالَفَ‏ کِتَابَ‏ اللهِ‏ فَدَعُوهُ»؛[3]

    for every right is a truth & on every blessing a shinin light , follow what is agrees with book of Allah & leave what disagrees with it

    Kafi v 1 p 69

    ا مام صادق(ع) :مَا لَمْ یُوَافِقْ مِنَ الْحَدِیثِ الْقُرْآنَ فَهُوَ زُخْرُفٌ

    Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) : what doesn't agree with Qur'an is a beautiful-seeming lie.

    H 199, Ch. 22, h 3

    A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from his father from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halab from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said the following.

    "Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Qur'an and the

    Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Qur'an it is a useless statement.’"

    Grading Majlisi: Sahih

    H 200, Ch. 22, h 4

    Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Faddal from Ali ibn ‘Uqba from Ayyub ibn Rashid from Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said thefollowing.

    "Of Hadith whatever does not agree with the holy Qur'an is a useless statement."

    Grading: Bahbudi: Sahih

    H 201, Ch. 22, h 5

    Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from ibn Abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn al-Hakam and others from Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following.

    "The holy Prophet once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makkah) saying, "O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith you must see if it agrees with the holy book of Allah then know that I have said it but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah then know that I have not said it.

    Grading: Majlisi: Sahih (majhool)

    Chaper 22, Vol 1, Al kafi
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Beware of leadership and beware of marching behind men (following them). I asked : May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, I understand what leadership is, However, as far as walking behind men
    Is concerned, I must acknowledge that two thirds of what I know are from
    walking behind men.
    The Imam said: It is not the way you think. Beware of supporting a man without divine authority but you acknowledge whatever he has said.
     
  12. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's because we are doing opposite to what Quran and Sunnah commands in this regard for fallible leaders with no proof of authority in religion.
     
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Imam Baqir (as) has said that the Messenger of Allah has said, 'The Hadith (statements) of Ahl al-Bayt (members of the family of Prophet Muhammad) is difficult and it becomes difficult. No one
    believes in it except the angels that are close to Allah or the Prophets who are sent
    also, a servant of Allah whose He has tested for faith. Whatever would come to you of the
    Hadith (statements) of Ahl al-Bayt of Muhammad (members of the family of Prophet
    Muhammad), if your heart would feel relief and you recognized them accept them. Whatever
    that would cause antipathy in your hearts and you could not recognize leave them to Allah, to
    the Messenger of Allah and the knowing one from Ahl al-Bayt of Muhammad. The ones to perish
    are those who do not accept Hadith of Ahl al-Bayt (members of the family of Prophet
    Muhammad). Whenever one is narrated to them they say, "By Allah, this was not and that was
    not." Denial is disbelief."


    Imam Jaffar:


    "Our Hadith

    (statements) are difficult and they become difficult. Only well lighted chests, the well

    protected of virtuous moral abilities are capable to accept them." Allah has taken a pledge

    from our Shi'a (followers) just as He has taken such pledge from the children of Adam (Am I not Your Lord?" Whoever would remain loyal to us Allah will grant then paradise. Whoever would dislike us and would not deliver our rights to us they will live in fire forever."


    "I wrote to Imam al-Hassan al_' Askari (a.s.) saying, May Allah take

    my soul in service for your cause, what is the meaning of the following Hadith of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (a.s.)? "Our Hadith (statements) are difficult and they become difficult. No one is capable to bear them not even an angel or a prophet who is also a messenger or a believer whose heart Allah has tested for faith.?" The answer came as herein below. "The meaning of the words the truthful one 'that angels, prophets and believers are not capable to accept them' is that of the truthful one is that the angel does bear it until he deliver it to other angels. The prophet does not bear it until he delivers it to another prophet and the believer does not bear it until he delivers to another believer. This is the meaning of the words of my grandfather."




    The last hadith explains the difficulty is in understanding the words without the help of others. Even Angels need to convey to another Angel, and then they can together understand it. A Prophet also has to discuss it with another Prophet. The believers are also likewise unable to bear it till they deliver to another believer.


    This hadith with the previous ones in the former chapters shows it’s necessary to council one another about the hadiths.


    The difficulty of course is that the Islamic guidance and religion is a strange religion, the revelation was revealed to a very strange person, and the truth is strange. And so we need to discuss with one another, and help one another understand.


    The hadiths of Ahlulbayt (as), some are easy to understand, but to know all the hadiths, which is what is meant by the term “our hadiths”, and to understand them, we need to come together as a community.


    Of course, the first tradition shows, if some hadith is hard for us to accept, just leave them to God. This is another aspect, a believer may understand a hadith and see things in them, but without proof, he isn’t to impose his view.


    In fact, even with proofs, the knowledge and wisdom are layered in society. But the hadith from Imam Hassan Alskari (as) shows it’s impossible to understand all the traditions of Ahlulbayt (as) without helping one another and conveying to one another.


    In fact, while it’s layered, a certain level of knowledge where one understands the traditions of Ahlulbayt (as) is an obligation on humanity. This brings the next subject, which is the obligation of seeking knowledge.
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    – Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadl b. Shadhan from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Jamil b. Darraj from Aban b. Taghlab from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I would like to strike the heads of my companions with lashes in order for them to apply themselves to learning (yatafaqqahu).

    Muhammad b. Yahya the perfumist from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Mu`awiya b. Wahb. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Seek knowledge and adorn with it by forbearance and dignity. And be humble to the one to whom you teach knowledge and be humble to the one from whom you seek knowledge. And do not be arrogant scholars lest your falsehood destroy your truth.

    Muhammad from Ahmad from Ibn Faddal from Ibn Bukayr from Hamza b. at-Tayyar that he presented to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام some of the sermons of his father until when he reached a place from it he said to him: Refrain and be silent. Then he said: You cannot but refrain from regarding what befalls you of what you do not know, while the verification and rejection is up to the Imams of guidance in order that they convey you upon the meaning in it, clarify from you the blindness in it, and make known to you the truth in it. Allah said “So ask the family of the reminder if you do not know”.

    al-Husayn b. Muhammad from Ahmad b. Ishaq from Sa`dan b. Muslim from Mu`awiya b. `Ammar. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: A man who is a narrator of your hadith, spreading that amongst the people and strengthening it in the hearts of your Shi`a, and perhaps a worshipper from your Shi`a who does not have this narration, which of them is better? He said: The narrator of our hadith strengthening the hearts of our Shi`a by it is better than a thousand worshipers.

    Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Jamil b. Salih from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Verily the one from you who teaches knowledge has the like of the reward of the learner (al-muta`allim) and he has virtue over him. So learn knowledge from the bearers of knowledge and teach it to your brethren as the learned (al-`ulama) have taught you

    Every Muslim agrees that it’s obligatory for Muslims to seek knowledge. What we wish to show is that learning from the learned is encouraged in Islam, but as the previous hadiths show, this shouldn’t be to the extent we blindly follow others. In fact, we will see in Quran it’s commanded we all become pious learned people with respect to God’s religion and to teach the knowledge to others.

    In fact, we can see we are supposed to gather, learn the traditions from the learned, and discuss the religion together and see them in Quran. At the same time, in this process, never should a people be given authority in the religion to the extent everything they say is acknowledged.

    This is the balanced approach. Yes, in this process, we are bound at a certain point of times to follow laws we don’t perceive, but, we should seek to reach a level of insight where we see all the laws and religion in the Quran through the help of hadiths and the believers council to one another.
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    In a chapter devoted to the issue of interpretation, and how to not follow ambiguity but to stick to the clear bright signs, it has a brought a verse in connection on how to hold on to the rope from humans and rope from God, which forms the rope of God.

    It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my Worshippers rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be pious sages because of your teaching of the book and because of what you study.(3:79)


    The Arabic word used for pious sages implies worshipping God sincerely (1) having immense knowledge of the divine sciences (2) and being detached from the vain caprice (3). While Jesus was worshipped outright, it can be said, anyone followed without knowledge is worshipped, since the people are following not to follow God or Worship God, but like past Prophets said concerning idols “You only take them as a means of love between yourself”. The true way to be free of worshiping Mohamad and holding him on par with God, is to be convinced that God is the one we appreciate Mohammad for guiding us to and for showing us his will. We are to obey God, and the Messenger out of obedience and intention to obey God. If this intention is there, people won’t follow humans blindly, but out of insight. Hence this is why it’s very important to see that the chosen ones have proofs and insights calling to them and provide proofs and insights, so we follow them and worship God through them, by what we teach of the book and by what we study. What we teach of the book is so that we also don’t just call people to religion for the sake of our religious identity, but it’s cause, we wish out of compassion and love to spread our knowledge and insights. We must call by our knowledge, since, that is the only proof we know of and to call without proof is calling to idol worship.

    This verse summarizes the thesis of this book and how to solve the paradox. All humans to free themselves from idol worship, must seek knowledge and teach it. This the only way Prophets and Leaders God appoints won’t become an idol among the idols we have, and idols including scholars we follow without knowledge.
     
  16. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Then the Quran should have been clearer. And these fallible leaders don't seem to fear God, which is kind of odd. It's as if they don't think God exists, or is just impotent.
     
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  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The Quran is as clear as it get's. What you might say is that God should force us to understand or block out the power of misguiding Jinn and sorcerers from humans, but this is part of the trial, he allows to go at it and delivers those who rely on Him.
     
  18. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Given your criticisms you don't think it is clear enough for many Muslims.

    You're presenting problems with how things are. God should know humans well enough to make his message clear, yes?
     
  19. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    I have a question that might sound positively ignorant (forgive me because I am ignorant:) from what I can discern, the Quran reads like poetry. Wouldn't one then interpret it as poetry?
    (sorry if I cause any offense.)
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It has poetic features. It is not exactly like poetry. Poetry follows a pattern that Quran does not. Quran has a unique style.
     
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