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The Four Agreements

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Not sure if I'm placing this in the right forum, but I think that it might fit here. I've been meaning to really get back into reading on a daily basis. I've sadly grown busy over the past year, or so I say. I think we just find needless distractions that keep us from doing the things we should. Earlier, I purchased a book on my kindle, and I'm about 40% through it, already. It is remarkable! I've read a lot of books in my life, but this is a different kind of read. Whether you are an atheist, a spiritualist, or a religious person...you probably will glean something of value from it. If you've read it, I'd be really interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

The book's main premise is this:

3752907_orig.jpg


And this is the book:
51MfVDOlEkL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Finally, a book that might help me heal over all the issues I've had with my dad. I didn't really bank on this book having any type of insight in that regard, but...you'll have to read it for yourself to see how it can apply in your life. It is NOT a self-help type book...but it will help you wherever you may need it. I placed this thread in this section because the author considers himself a shaman.
 
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Curious George

Veteran Member
Not sure if I'm placing this in the right forum, but I think that it might fit here. I've been meaning to really get back into reading on a daily basis. I've sadly grown busy over the past year, or so I say. I think we just find needless distractions that keep us from doing the things we should. Earlier, I purchased a book on my kindle, and I'm about 40% through it, already. It is remarkable! I've read a lot of books in my life, but this is a different kind of read. Whether you are an atheist, a spiritualist, or a religious person...you probably will glean something of value from it. If you've read it, I'd be really interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

The book's main premise is this:

3752907_orig.jpg


And this is the book:
51MfVDOlEkL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Finally, a book that might help me heal over all the issues I've had with my dad. I didn't really bank on this book having any type of insight in that regard, but...you'll have to read it for yourself to see how it can apply in your life. It is NOT a self-help type book...but it will help you wherever you may need it. I placed this thread in this section because the author considers himself a shaman.
I dated a girl that knew him. We argued about whether it was a self help book. Lol
 

Mequa

Neo-Epicurean
Perhaps not directly relevant to the subject matter, however the title "The Four Agreements" reminded me of the classical Epicurean model of true friendship and personal boundaries, based on mutual "neither harm nor be harmed".

Allow me to illustrate this with an example. Bob and Sue are true friends.

Four Agreements:
- Bob goes out of his way to avoid hurting or harming Sue (respects Sue's personal boundaries).
- Bob goes out of his way to avoid being hurt or harmed by Sue (asserts his own personal boundaries).
- Sue goes out of his way to avoid hurting or harming Bob (respects Bob's personal boundaries).
- Sue goes out of his way to avoid being hurt or harmed by Sue (asserts her own personal boundaries).

Those are the "Four Agreements" which spring to mind when I hear the term. It's a quadruple agreement which is present in any true friendship, a solid bind to prevent anyone getting hurt, articulating the responsibilities to both self and other which constitute genuine friendship (in Greek, philia). Both justice and friendship take the same form - neither harm nor be harmed.

Assertiveness is very much implicit in the classical Epicurean model in my reading of it. That necessitates an avoidance of both passivity (e.g. fleeing), requiring the character strength of courage; and aggression (hurting/harming the other through fighting), requiring the character strength of self-control.

True friends are furthermore to encourage each other to achieve health, happiness and inner peace, while prioritising their own, creating a win-win arrangement. Here is where the boundary between self-interest and altruism breaks down, and there is no place for shame and guilt. Only the aspiration towards one's own genuine happiness and inner peace, rooted in a profound respect for one's own dignity (in my reading of it).

Epicurus went so far as to call true friendship an "immortal good", given how it has utility in transcending the fear of death (the most primal fear), and bringing the individual towards a sense of robust inner peace (in Greek: ataraxia) and relaxation of physical bodily muscular tension (in Greek: aponia).

Furthermore, development of the classical four cardinal strengths of character (or "virtues"), that is: prudence, self-control, courage, and justice (neither harm nor be harmed), are necessary for the practice of true friendship, for cultivating the requisite virtues required to be a good friend, as is taking responsibility for the consequences of one's own actions.

It is also expected that humans will mess up and fail from time to time - only a mythical "sage" is exempt. A "philosopher" is a "lover of wisdom", someone "homesick" for natural wisdom (in one reading) which has been buried under errors of thought and action picked up (such as via past traumas). This implies some form of humility - to aspire after wisdom implies a recognition that one is lacking it, that is, that one is often foolish. No shame or guilt is implied by this, merely a recognition that one is "missing the mark" (in Greek: harmartia), and would be best to change perspective (in Greek: metanoia). Wisdom itself, and its cultivation, is ultimately only something useful as means to the end of living a happy life for oneself (personal ethical egoism). It's all about you in the end, your own rational self-interest.

"Only the wise man, who prunes away all the rank growth of vanity and error, can possibly live untroubled by sorrow and by fear, content within the bounds that nature has set." (citation by Cicero).

Thus the Epicurean ethic offers both a robust model of true friendship between individuals (seeking their own happiness in life first and foremost), and of personal development, which I believe constitutes a radical common sense model for living a happy life. I offer this post here in the spirit of genuine friendship in this very model.

Mequa
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
It's an interesting enough book, and raises some interesting an valid ideas, but goes a bit too New Age Spiritual nonsense for me.

A better book to read is Science and Human Behaviour by B.F. Skinner and Science and Sanity by Alfred Korzibsky. Which is what this guy has basically done and added a lot of New age stuff on top.
 
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Deidre

Well-Known Member
My question on #2 though is...it seems a little on the cold side. If we honestly offend people, and they react to that offense...wouldn't their reaction be based on something we have done 'to' them? I understand what it means on a basic level, though. Is he trying to suggest that even if we offend people, people are still responsible for their reactions? I happen to think it means that if people lash out at us for 'no reason,' let's say, then we shouldn't take it personally.

Any thoughts to this?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
My question on #2 though is...it seems a little on the cold side. If we honestly offend people, and they react to that offense...wouldn't their reaction be based on something we have done 'to' them? I understand what it means on a basic level, though. Is he trying to suggest that even if we offend people, people are still responsible for their reactions? I happen to think it means that if people lash out at us for 'no reason,' let's say, then we shouldn't take it personally.

Any thoughts to this?[/QUOTE



Absolutely. We are always responsible for our actions, reactions, and emotions. These are always choices and no one makes those choices for us. When we reach that level of self control we are starting to approach impeccability.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I finished up 'don't take anything personally' last night. My whole outlook is different today. :)
So often, we allow people dumping on is, insulting us, etc...to be about us, when it really is about the other person.

Not to say we should go around offending people and not care if we hurt anyone. That's not what it means. It signifies that when you are good to people and they don't appreciate it, or seek to hurt you in some way, that's on them. It's not personal with you. And even more curious, is the book talks about how we shouldn't take things we tell ourselves as personal. lol That we sometimes talk down to ourselves because we follow old scripts.

Quite an insightful read so far.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I finished up 'don't take anything personally' last night. My whole outlook is different today. :)
So often, we allow people dumping on is, insulting us, etc...to be about us, when it really is about the other person.

Not to say we should go around offending people and not care if we hurt anyone. That's not what it means. It signifies that when you are good to people and they don't appreciate it, or seek to hurt you in some way, that's on them. It's not personal with you. And even more curious, is the book talks about how we shouldn't take things we tell ourselves as personal. lol That we sometimes talk down to ourselves because we follow old scripts.

Quite an insightful read so far.

Sounds like you're well on your way. I had a friend ask me one time why I never get angry. I knew he wouldn't understand but I wanted to tell him that suppose someone calls me a worthless SOB. If I'm not then it doesn't matter what I'm called, the caller has a problem. If I am, then it's up to me to either change or not, I have the problem. Either way the reaction is my choice. I live with no regrets.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Sounds like you're well on your way. I had a friend ask me one time why I never get angry. I knew he wouldn't understand but I wanted to tell him that suppose someone calls me a worthless SOB. If I'm not then it doesn't matter what I'm called, the caller has a problem. If I am, then it's up to me to either change or not, I have the problem. Either way the reaction is my choice. I live with no regrets.
That's it exactly!! If I treat people well, and then they continue to chastise me, it’s on them. I’m done letting people dictate to me who I am. Especially those who don’t know me at all, but think that they do. Time for bluer skies, without all the clouds. Thank you :)
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
That's it exactly!! If I treat people well, and then they continue to chastise me, it’s on them. I’m done letting people dictate to me who I am. Especially those who don’t know me at all, but think that they do. Time for bluer skies, without all the clouds. Thank you :)

My pleasure. BTW I think I'll read the book.
 

Wirey

Fartist
Not sure if I'm placing this in the right forum, but I think that it might fit here. I've been meaning to really get back into reading on a daily basis. I've sadly grown busy over the past year, or so I say. I think we just find needless distractions that keep us from doing the things we should. Earlier, I purchased a book on my kindle, and I'm about 40% through it, already. It is remarkable! I've read a lot of books in my life, but this is a different kind of read. Whether you are an atheist, a spiritualist, or a religious person...you probably will glean something of value from it. If you've read it, I'd be really interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

The book's main premise is this:

3752907_orig.jpg


And this is the book:
51MfVDOlEkL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Finally, a book that might help me heal over all the issues I've had with my dad. I didn't really bank on this book having any type of insight in that regard, but...you'll have to read it for yourself to see how it can apply in your life. It is NOT a self-help type book...but it will help you wherever you may need it. I placed this thread in this section because the author considers himself a shaman.

I promise to read it, if you promise to stop putting bear traps in the shrubs outside your windows.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I can't begin to express with mere words how 'not taking things personally' (that section) has significantly helped me lately!!
 
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