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Featured The Folly of Atheism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by usfan, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I have read everything I could lay my hands on and I have applied logic and reason to what I read. That is what independent investigation of truth is. I have read opposing views as well.

    The Baha'i Faith has a theology of progressive revelation but we have no dogmas or doctrines like Christianity and other religions of the past. We live according to the Writings of Baha'u'llah and His appointed interpreters Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The Baha'i Faith administration did not construct man-made dogmas or doctrines from what they wrote.
     
  2. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    Completely unknown, since you'd first have to know exactly what exists and what consequences there are for belief or lack of belief.
     
  3. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    That is a good point. Only those believers who believe stuff based on nothing but personal experiences or "feelings" or "faith" or indoctrination or brainwashing or ancient or modern scriptures or religious "authorities" or upbringing etc should be in that category. Those who have thoroughly studied all the religions and sects and cults and gods and the scientific explanations for why we believe in gods and religions to begin with and still have made an informed decision to believe in the existence of one or more gods should be respected at least for their effort. This is an interesting article. The Origins of Religion: How Supernatural Beliefs Evolved
    So true. All theists and religions seem to have their own personal version of God and they all contradict each other showing that we are not dealing with an actual entity here but just how different people are imagining one. Every time an atheist points out something wrong a theist can just say "Oh no, that's not the God I believe in!" An atheist always has to address the God the particular person believes in. It's a nightmare, I can tell you...
    So you brainwashed yourself by just feeding yourself information from one source?
    Excellent! Now it's getting interesting! Make a detailed list of the information that has been confirmed to be accurate along with the corroborating evidence from other independent neutral objective sources! That would be useful and actually get us somewhere!
     
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  4. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    This is a very flawed conclusion, based on misinformation.

    1. I dispute that 'All theists have their own personal version of God!' :eek:.. they do not. The basic IDEA of God is uniformly homogeneous among MOST theists. Omniscient. Omnipresent. Omnipotence. Creator. Merciful. Holy. Pure. There may be minor nuances, or differences in perception (see 'Blind Men & Elephant story), but the BASIC CONCEPT of the Almighty is consistent throughout the human experience.
    2. This HUMAN CONSENSUS, of a Supreme Being, able to create the cosmos, is universal, consistent, and spans culture, race, region, and time. That UNIVERSAL perception of a Supreme Being, is a major evidence of His existence.
    3. The historical, minute minority of atheists, throughout human history, reveals them as outliers and aberrations among the human perceptions about the nature of the universe.
    4. The intensity and dedication to atheistic propaganda is a more credible explanation for the recent growth of atheism among humanity. AND, even with the thorough and constant propaganda from institutions dedicated to atheistic naturalism, the number of those who embrace atheism are still a minority.. a small minority.. among the perceptions in humanity.
    5. The loud, vocal, and militant atheists, that are so common on discussion forums, delude themselves (and anyone who will listen!) into pretending atheism is a mainstream worldview.

    But i will admit that the Narrative, 'So many gods!!' :eek:.. is a popular deflection among atheists and their enablers, to justify the folly & madness of denying what the great majority of human beings throughout history have known, intuitively:

    There is a God and Spiritual Reality. Someday you will meet your Maker.
     
    #644 usfan, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  5. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Ah, good example of atheistic folly! :D

    Just trying to define atheism generates righteous indignation, and religious hysteria from the True Believers, among the atheistic faithful..

    So, a simple definition of 'atheism', incites you to lash out with, 'Blasphemy!' 'Fool & Liar!', types of melodrama responses.

    This is another good example of atheistic folly.. good illustration. Detached discussion of philosophical concepts is impossible, with progressive indoctrinees. They personalize and take grievous offence for any examination or criticism of their beliefs. They will mock and ridicule other's beliefs with demeaning caricatures, but no definitions are even allowed for THEIR beliefs, which must remain shrouded in the Holy of Holies of Irrational Ambiguity..

    :D

    Well, if 'Christianity!' ..:eek:.. ..can be subject to scrutiny, skepticism, psychoanalysis, and rigorous examination, should not the main critics of Christianity receive equal treatment? ..more respectfully than what they dish out, but why not an examination of atheism, too?
    I submit that this very common perception of 'Christianity!' ..:eek:.. ..is not based on objective reality, but demeaning propaganda, from a competing worldview. It is false caricatures, constantly pounded as propaganda memes, from anti-christian promoters of an anti-christian agenda.

    There is only boogie men and scapegoats, demonized to smear Christianity as a positive worldview in the human experience.

    The hostility and fearmongering is toward a strawman.. a caricature created by the competition. Since they control all the propaganda megaphones, their narratives become accepted Truth.. a successful propaganda campaign.
     
  6. Skreeper

    Skreeper Member

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    Right, it's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing for making abortion illegal. It's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing against gay marriage. It's only a strawman that the Christian right is pushing against established science like evolution or even basic things like vaccines.

    This is not propaganda, this is reality.
     
  7. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    No, it is a straw man. You have caricatured 'boogie men!' :eek:.. ..pumped up from constant propaganda, to fear monger and demonized the 'evil Christians!' :eek:.. 'who want to kill and oppress us all!!' ..:eek:..

    Abortion is a social, moral issue, with beliefs across ideological spectrums. It is not an exclusively 'Christian' issue.
    Same with homosexuality..
    'Christians hate science!', is a phony propaganda meme. Human beings from all ideological spectrums engage in scientific inquiry.
     
  8. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    Guys, I've put usfan on ignore and I just can't recommend it enough.

    He's not interested in rational debate - only in pretending to be rational while never actually being open to changing his mind on anything. Any "debate" with him is a loaded game, designed to put himself at the top and anyone with any other perspective beneath him at all costs. If you present facts, he either ignores or distorts them. If you present an opposing view, he patronizes you. If you dare to accuse him of bias, he accuses you of ad hominems (a fallacy he still doesn't understand despite dozens of explanations to him).

    Whenever he is demonstrated to be wrong, he will just pretend he hasn't and continue to assume control of the topic by shifting the goalposts. I've seen him do this tactic multiple times: avoiding admitting error by suddenly changing the topic of the original discussion. It's nothing but a shady lawyer's trick: the way to "win" a debate is not by having the best argument or even having the facts on your side - you win by being the one to determine the subject being debated. It's a tactic used by the alt-right and many other online groups who wish to create a self-serving narrative out of any so-called "debate", and it's something that impossible to reason with because their argument isn't about reason: it's about ego. It's about them being the "smart" one, and everyone who thinks any differently being "dumb" or "irrational" or "brainwashed". You'll never get through to them, because to admit that they were wrong or to change their mind on any issue would make them therefore "dumb", "irrational" or "brainwashed", and - above all else - that must be prevented at all costs. When I refused to let usfan control the narrative in the evolution thread, their mask slipped and they resorted to childish insinuations and personal attacks. Until they learn to take on board other people's arguments, and acknowledge faults in their own, they cannot meaningfully contribute to this forum.

    These threads are just troll threads, designed to knowingly generate outrage and then point at the outrage and use it as further vindication of the OP's "totally rational" position. Please don't feed him. Just give him all the attention he deserves: none. When they have finally lost their audience and begin shouting into the lonely, unresponsive darkness, maybe then he will finally hear the echo of what he's saying and realize how incredibly irrational and ignorant their position is. At least, that's a possibility.

    I sincerely believe usfan is a detriment to this forum. Just ignore them.
     
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  9. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    So, ignoring me, you dedicate a long post to an ad hom deflection, about my motives, character, and personal traits.. :rolleyes:

    ..ironic. you won't debate me with facts and reason, but rely on fallacy.. very bizarre, especially since you can't even read my posts! You prejudicially ignore them, but know exactly what they say!
    ;)

    Are you lobbying now to have me banned? Can't handle alternate perspectives, and want an echo chamber of homogeneous belief?

    Your projection is for you alone. Don't put your hangups on me.
     
  10. Skreeper

    Skreeper Member

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    I don't demonize all Christians as evil. I was very clear that I am talking about the right wing fundagelicals that push these kinds of policies I mentioned.

    Only someone who has no experience with the current political climate would suggest that there are no Christians pushing for anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-science nonsense.
     
  11. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Alright Trail, let's wrap this up.

    If God wants me to know, he's picked a crappy method that is obviously flawed, so he's gonna have to change it up. If he chooses not to, he guarantees I won't believe in him. His call. :shrug:

    I have no need for God, since the universe goes on as though he weren't there anyway. Again, if God wants to convince me he's there, he knows where to find me.

    Agreed. He has picked a crappy, inferior method that guarantees that everyone won't believe in him. Despite both wanting everyone to believe in him and being literally omnipotent...

    Again, the clear as day conclusion here is that this arrangement is absurd.

    Then he's created a situation that ensures he won't be universally believed. No skin off my nose, either. :shrug:

    Huh. It's almost as though many, many different people are trying to tell you something...;)

    Yes, it is. The details are always slightly unique but it's the similarities to pay attention to. The logic you're using is perfectly analogous.

    Oh give me a break. :rolleyes: One of the great things about Millennials is that we've started to break down this unnecessary and counter-productive hierarchical work culture that our predecessors created. I have no problem following instructions and respecting people in authority; ask any of my ex-bosses. What I recognize, however, is that none of them are infallible. We are all human, we all have strengths and weaknesses and all make mistakes. A strong, productive work culture is one where employees can be collaborative with their supervisors and not stifle their ingenuity out of some authoritarian deference to their boss. Why some Boomers have such a hard time with this obviously beneficial change in mindset and culture I don't know. But I suspect it's very tied up in their versions of religion, too.

    Only by his choice. How many times must we tread this ground?

    I'm gonna break something to you, friend. It's not that different from other religions. Christianity and Islam, as well as multiple subsects under those umbrella, have arrangements much like this. Sure, we have the Bible/Qur'an, but Jesus/Muhammad passed his authority and teachings on to others who now interpret and further explain them for the rest of us. The details are always slightly different in each case. The similarities are undeniable.

    I actually asked it before, but mkay sure...

    "Do lots of reading and research" is really not a method. I'm looking for a methodology, a way to tell the difference between a book written by just any other person and a book written by a deity.

    :facepalm:

    No.

    No. No. No.

    We've been over this. There is no "cannot" with an omnipotent being. He chooses not to show up himself.

    How can a Messenger know, any more than you? Again, I'm looking for a methodology.

    You need an attorney to talk to God? Are you afraid he's going to screw you? Overcharge you? What a weird conception of God.
     
    #651 Left Coast, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  12. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Not even the Christian God and Allah is the same god. God has a son. Allah doesn't. God is triune, Allah isn't. And on and on. Pick one or the other. Pick Allah and you can forget all about any resurrection. Muslims say that's a lie. No Christ paying for people's sins.
    What are the differences between Allah and the God of the Christian Bible? | Truth Or Tradition?
    "A new survey shows that 51 per cent of people in the world believe in God." Can you then figure out how many don't?
    Most people believe in God, international poll finds
     
  13. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    To all the other people reading this, do you now understand why some atheists have big problems with Christianity and Christians? It's because of posts like this and people like usfan ruining it for all you other Christians out there.
     
  14. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Once again, you nitpick over details, rather than the broader, 'God/no God', dichotomy, which is the focus of this thread. The Divine Attributes, of Omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence, are universal, when describing the Divine.

    It would be quite expected, for humans to have different perceptions about God, and define Him through their cultural, anthropomorphic, regional and era biases.

    That does not mean, 'Different gods!!', ..:eek:.. ..but it could more likely mean, merely different perceptions.

    It is part of the folly of atheism to dismiss ANY concept of The Divine, based on different perceptions.

    It is like getting different perspectives from witnesses, and dismissing an event because the witnesses did not all perfectly agree.

    'The moon is waxing full, and in the southwest.'
    'The moon is waning, and in the southeast'

    'No agreement! Too many moons!' 'There is no moon at all!'

    ;)
     
  15. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Ah, divide and conquer, eh? ;)

    No problem. You can bash me, personally, all you want. You just won't like it when i fire back.

    You were expecting (or hoping for!) a one way shooting arcade? ;)

    But since you're busy calling the kettle black, how do your personal attacks and smears toward Christianity and Christians give atheism a positive impression? ..since you seem so concerned about appearances? .. :shrug:
     
  16. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Right.
    :facepalm:

    49% of the world are atheists. :rolleyes:

    Do you really expect to fool people with these bluffs? I don't think you even fool yourself.. :shrug:
     
  17. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Your posts don't exactly do that faith any favours, that is for sure.
     
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  18. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Another pot? ;) ..you think your posts endear everyone to atheism?

    Who says we have to be winsome and effective proselytizers? Isn't that against forum rules?

    Can't we just debate our opinions, without being attacked, personally, for them? :shrug:
     
  19. Catholicus

    Catholicus Active Member

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    "God is compassion" (1 John).

    All the bible needs to be read in the light of that statement.
     
  20. Catholicus

    Catholicus Active Member

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    There's much better evidence for God's existence, in fact - that each of us exists.

    The historian you mention is also a professional atheist
     
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