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Featured The Folly of Atheism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by usfan, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Yes, of course, you have criteria. As does everyone else who believes in "messengers," including the ones you don't accept.

    It's his problem if he wants to claim to be just while punishing people who don't believe in him when he hides from them.

    If you actually believe that the best way to communicate with people, or convince them you even exist and aren't just words on a page, is to send intermediaries to talk on your behalf, then I have no clue why you're talking to me right now. You should have an intermediary talk to me and tell me what you think about things, since that's obviously so much more effective.

    I wasn't using an argument, I was pointing out how silly it would be for you to use a numbers-based argument. It appears you agree that's silly, so we're square.

    Actually I do, I have a degree in it and went to grad school to study it for a couple years. But go ahead, dazzle me with your psychological expertise.

    Yeah, just like you. Exactly my point.

    Logically speaking, all God needs to do to clarify all this misrepresentation and confusion, right here right now, is show up and explain himself. But your religion has invented an arbitrary reason why he can't do that, and thus we must deal with middle men. Again, God's problem.

    Fascinating. I'm gonna need more than Baha'u'llah's say so, though, if you want me to buy that. Call me crazy. :shrug:

    Yes, religions have founders. That's a completely mundane, obvious observation that doesn't actually explain the mechanism by which people adopt the faith they do. To say that Christianity is the largest religion in the world "because Jesus founded it" is one-dimensional and silly.

    "Man" is composed of individual men. If individuals can't choose what they believe, then "Man" can't as a generalization, either.

    Bull. ****. I have not. I haven't chosen not to believe in God anymore than I've chosen not to believe in bigfoot. How many more analogies would you like?

    I didn't choose to reject the idea of messengers. It occurred to me at a point in time that using messengers is a silly, inefficient way for an omnipotent being to communicate, and is exactly the kind of mechanism theists in a godless universe would claim is necessary to receive the message of their omnipotent God. I can't unthink that line of reasoning. I am compelled to believe it is so, until I am shown evidence or argument that convinces me I've been wrong.

    Then I don't know what you're arguing about. :shrug:
     
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is the point....nothing happens after you die. You 'sleep' (are in an unconscious state) in a state of virtual 'suspended animation' until God has cleansed the earth of all who pollute it, and wantonly destroy life (human and otherwise). He will then transform this beautiful planet into that which resembles his original purpose for it. Paradise conditions......forever.

    Whether we are awakened or not depends on what we did in this life. There is an 'unforgivable sin'...but the majority of humans have not committed it. These I believe will be "the righteous and the unrighteous" who Jesus will call out of their graves to a restoration of life, with their families reunited. (John 5:28-29) God knows whom to resurrect and whom to leave in eternal death. We can build up a record with God now if we want to, guaranteeing a wonderful future.

    Eternity will then be spent as God intended it to be spent...in useful work as caretakers and zookeepers and landscapers and gardeners, sharing the work with others who also enjoy maintaining the beauty of it.....and with enhanced mental and physical capacity, there will be endless discovery caring for the earth and its myriad inhabitants....learning more about them and their natural habitats which will be preserved for them, rather than being destroyed to make way for selfish humans.

    If we choose God....this is what is promised......choose to believe in nothing, means that nothing is what you get in return. That is what we see as the choices.
     
    #542 Deeje, Jul 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
  3. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Hallo, speaking of the definition Nazis having arrived, could we please kindly agreeably define God .
     
  4. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Me being just 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003 percent the size of the observable universe does mean there is plenty of space around me for there being possibly more than one god.
     
  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You're not addressing the substantial questions.

    If God is real then God has objective existence and thus exists in nature and not merely as a concept, a thing imagined. Therefore if God is real, God has a real description unique to God, just as H. sapiens sapiens, the arctic loon, Fingerite, Santalum album, any other real thing does ─ a description consisting of real qualities that suffice to distinguish each of them from anything else. What real qualities of God distinguish God from anything else?

    Thus, what real qualities will my neighbor have if she's God, the same real qualities she'll lack if she isn't?

    And what real qualities will a universe-making superscientist lack that a universe-making real God will have?
     
  6. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Yet.... your god is immoral for using Special Favorites. What's that about?

    And in it's "infallibility" it is too inept to show itself to everyone, equally. Ooops!

    Even worse, Jim! Most of the planet never even heard of this god of yours.....
     
  7. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Citation Needed. So many assumptions in just one short pair of sentences alone...
     
  8. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    You don't get to re-define terms mid-sentence, just because you don't have actual evidence.

    You are not helping your cause, here-- you're making it much-much worse:

    YOU claimed you had "evidence"... and now? You're saying you don't have any?
     
  9. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    That's not how it works, actually. Maliciously Evil god work that way, though.

    As do grossly incompetent gods.

    And, of course, gods that don't actually exist in the first place....
     
  10. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Blame The Victim, same stuff, third day....
     
  11. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Who said I shave in the first place? Shaving is what broken-minded slaves do...

    Did I say 'shaving'? I meant 'worship'....
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I am sorry I missed that you are an agnostic, I post to so many people here and some also on my forum.
    I do not know the Bible very well because I was never a Christian so I am not familiar with that. But as a Baha'i, I do not believe that the Bible is all literally true, as if it happened in real life. The Bible says God did this and God did that, I just don't believe that is necessarily true.
    I don't know, and that is the point. But just because I don't know does not mean I just believe. Unless they are Christians, do scholars believe that everything that is in the Bible actually happened?

    Obviously, if passages like those in Genesis and 1 Samuel actually happened then they are history, but how can we know? If you believe them, why aren't you a Jew or a Christian? It seems strange to me that nonbelievers talk about the Bible as if it was true.
     
  13. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    Doesn't matter for the analogy to work. People have died for aliens lurking behind comets. The proof I have provided for the Invisible Dragon is as valid as your proof for God.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    But that does not mean my criteria is wrong or that my Messengers are wrong (or that their criteria is wrong or that their Messengers are wrong.).
    Again, it is not God’s problem, but God does not have problems, since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining, so God has NO need for our belief nor does it matter to God if we think He is unjust.

    I never said that God punishes anyone. But God only hides His Essence, His attributes are visible in His Messengers and His will is revealed through Them.
    That is the ONLY WAY God can communicate to humans, because God is not a man so God cannot talk to humans. That is why God sends Intermediaries.

    That is why Jesus said: John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” I do not have to get an intermediary because I am a human being so I am an intermediary, a messenger for the Messenger so to speak.

    Please do not waste your time using that argument on me, as you are grasping at straws.

    I wasn't using an argument, I was pointing out how silly it would be for you to use a numbers-based argument. It appears you agree that's silly, so we're square.
    I do not pretend to have psychological expertise, and even though I have an MA in Counseling Psychology, I did not work in the field for various personal reasons, not the least of which is that I had an MA degree in another field and a stable career working in that field. But nevertheless I am very interested in psychology, more so than in religion.
    I have no reason to give up my religion, since it is hot off the press, not thousands of years old. It never ceases to amaze me how illogical people are, but that is what happens when people are emotionally attached to their religions, usually ones they were brought up in.
    God cannot show up on Earth and talk because God is Spirit. That is some kind of fantasy.

    God did exactly that when he sent Baha’u’llah, God explained Himself… Baha’u’llah unsealed the Bible and explained what it means (Daniel 12). Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” The lack of understanding of the Bible is precisely why there are so many Christians that ran to and fro, which resulted in the many factions of Christianity, and this lack of understanding is also why the church had to hold councils to decide upon the doctrines Christians would follow for the next 2000 years.

    The Bible was never intended by God to be fully understood until the time of the end. That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days” which is when the book would be unsealed.

    The 2,300 years came in 1844, the exact year the Bab came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah, and the book was unsealed.

    My religion did not invent the middlemen. They have always existed, even though other religions do not refer to them that way, how do you think those religions were founded?
    I would not call you crazy. I had to do a lot of investigation before I believed that Bahaullah was a Manifestation of God. What you or anyone else should need, according to Baha’u’llah, is to investigate His claim to be a Manifestation of God (Messenger).

    “Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8
    No, I am not saying that is WHY Christianity is large, a process took place that caused the religion to spread. But Christianity has held its ground because there is something about Jesus that attracted Christians to become Christians and still does to this very day. Just look at what Christians say about Jesus on this forum. The same is true for Baha’is and Baha’u’llah and Muslims and Muhammad. I do not know as much about Jews and Moses.
    All men or women can’t believe in God, for various and sundry reasons, and I tend to think God understands that because Baha’u’llah wrote that we all have different capacities and are only responsible for using those capacities.

    “From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation. The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262
    I only meant that in the sense that you do not believe in God. How free you were to make that choice is another matter altogether and only God knows that since God is All-Knowing.
    You and all the other atheists. :rolleyes: I have been posting on forums 24/7 almost exclusively to atheists for over five years, so I have been listening to protestations regarding God using Messengers for five years. I have explained why God uses Messengers in many different ways, yet I have yet to hear one atheist give me a logical argument as to why God should communicate in some other way, how that would work, or why it would work better than Messengers. After all these years the only conclusion I have come to us that atheists do not like the idea of Messengers because they think God should speak to them directly, and many atheists even tell me this. Yet when I explain why God does not speak to everyone directly, and why God does not speak to anyone other than His chosen Messengers, what I say is not acceptable.

    So I have hit a brick wall. However, some of these atheists have become my friends and some of them now say they believe God exists, although they still do not like the idea of Messengers. I feel good that at least they believe God exists because that is the most important thing, IMO.
    I am not arguing that people can choose to believe in God as easy as falling off a log, even if it seems that way. On the other hand I think people have more power to choose than they give themselves credit for, as I discovered with my former atheist friends who once said they could not choose. Eventually the idea that God most likely exists finally took even though they remain suspicious about Baha’u’llah. But we continue to talk about Him anyway. :)
     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    It is only considered immoral to you, but that does not make it immoral.
    God does not show Himself to anyone.
    I am not Jim but if people have not hear about Baha'u'llah that is because the Bahais are not doing a good enough job.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    No, I never said that.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    That is you best bet.
     
  18. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Is the Quran evidence for God?
    Nonsense. He can just show up at any reputable scientific institution and show them his backparts and they could do any tests they like. Exodus 33:23 Then I will take My hand away, and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen."
     
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  19. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Now, that is a good suggestion! Try this one for starters! Home | Urantia Book | Urantia Foundation
     
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  20. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    How about if you read these books and learn what actually happens after you die? https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Newton/e/B000APC05I?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share
    Seriously!? Spending an eternity playing caretakers and zookepers and landscapers and gardeners on one planet in a universe full of them!? I'd go bonkers with boredom! Would there at least be any chance of expanding out in the universe and explore and colonize all the other planets!?
     
    #560 ArtieE, Jul 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
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