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The Folly of Atheism

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Repenting, regretting, or being sorry for what one did is an admission that it was wrong; a mistake. We don't repent, regret, or are sorry for things we did right. God says he made a mistake in making man on earth, and he made a mistake in making Saul the king of Israel.

Simple as that: God makes mistakes. Mistakes he even admits to.
.
No, absolutely NOT.
God is not admitting he made a mistake just because He is sorry or regrets having made humans or in making .
making Saul the king of Israel.

The caveat is that God gave man free will to do what man wanted to do and man screwed up, so God was sad. Being sad does not mean God made a mistake in creating man. Man will just have to work out his own mistakes and God knows that will happen eventually.

What might seem like a mistake at a moment in time is often a blessing in disguise. It has happened to all of us.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, absolutely NOT.
God is not admitting he made a mistake just because He is sorry or regrets having made humans or in making .
making Saul the king of Israel.

The caveat is that God gave man free will to do what man wanted to do and man screwed up, so God was sad. Being sad does not mean God made a mistake in creating man. Man will just have to work out his own mistakes and God knows that will happen eventually.

What might seem like a mistake at a moment in time is often a blessing in disguise. It has happened to all of us.
He just did not know that that would happen. I guess he forgot to turn on his Omnipotence those days.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If a book says there is a God without any real support and is evidence for a God then a book that says a God does not exist would be the same sort of evidence.
It is not the same sort of evidence because the book that is evidence for God was inspired by God or written by a Messenger of God, whereas the book that says God does not exists is just written by a human.
Personally I love the definition for scientific evidence because it first requires the believer to put his money where his mouth his. He has to find a reasonable test for his evidence, a test that could conceivably refute it. Then he only needs to find evidence that agrees with his concept. It is that first step that most theists cannot get over. They will not even try to think of a reasonable test that would refute their God. By the way, relying upon the work of others does not qualify as a reasonable test. One's idea must pass or fail on its own.
There is no scientific evidence for God and there is no way to test for God, since God is outside the purview of science. Only material things can be tested for. God is not a material thing.

But since you are trying to refute God it is up to you to do the test.
If you are making the claim that God does not exist, you have the burden of proof.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is not the same sort of evidence because the book that is evidence for God was inspired by God or written by a Messenger of God, whereas the book that says God does not exists is just written by a human.
There is no scientific evidence for God and there is no way to test for God, since God is outside the purview of science. Only material things can be tested for. God is not a material thing.

But since you are trying to refute God it is up to you to do the test.
If you are making the claim that God does not exist, you have the burden of proof.
Your first reply merits a facepalm.

And I am not trying to refute God. I am trying to help you to find reliable evidence for your God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He just did not know that that would happen. I guess he forgot to turn on his Omnipotence those days.
You mean Omniscience, not Omnipotence.
Yes, God knew, but that does not mean He could not be sad about what He knew would happen...
God has feelings too. :rolleyes:

Besides that, the Bible is just a story men wrote about God, so we cannot take it as seriously as the Writings of Baha'u'llah. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your first reply merits a facepalm.

And I am not trying to refute God. I am trying to help you to find reliable evidence for your God.
Why does it merit a facepalm? o_O
I already have reliable evidence for my God. :D
You are the one in need of reliable evidence IF you want to believe in God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You mean Omniscience, not Omnipotence.
Yes, God knew, but that does not mean He could not be sad about what He knew would happen...
God has feelings too. :rolleyes:

Besides that, the Bible is just a story men wrote about God, so we cannot take it as seriously as the Writings of Baha'u'llah. :D
My bad. I guess I forgot to turn on my omniscience too.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As I have had to point out time and time again, most theists do not understand the nature of evidence.
But I do:

evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. https://www.google.com/search

evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Note that evidence does only indicates or helps to prove whether a belief is true. It does not prove anything.

By contrast, proof establishes a fact. There is no proof that God exists or that any religion if true. There is only evidence that indicates that.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Why does it merit a facepalm? o_O
I already have reliable evidence for my God. :D
You are the one in need of reliable evidence IF you want to believe in God.

It is only claimed to be the word of God. The flaws in the books tells us that they clearly are not. Or that being the "word of God" is no kind of guarantee. And the writer of the book against God could claim some sort of just as reliable "non-divine inspiration".

And no, you don't have reliable evidence. Others do not see it, cannot see it. It could just as easily be delusion or error.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
No, absolutely NOT.
God is not admitting he made a mistake just because He is sorry or regrets having made humans or in making .
making Saul the king of Israel.
Believe it or not, but simply saying it isn't so doesn't make it not so.

The caveat is that God gave man free will to do what man wanted to do and man screwed up, so God was sad. Being sad does not mean God made a mistake in creating man.
Who said god was sad? Let's not be making up things because ve half vays of checking fibberers.

Man will just have to work out his own mistakes and God knows that will happen eventually.
As Subduction Zone so rightly observes, god must have forgotten to turn on his Omnipotence device those days, along with his Omniscience ray.

What might seem like a mistake at a moment in time is often a blessing in disguise. It has happened to all of us.
So god likely made another mistake when he repented, regretted, and was sorry for what he did. Boy, the poor old guy just can't get himself back on track, can he. Maybe it would help if you offered up a burnt ram like Moses did. :shrug:

.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is only claimed to be the word of God. The flaws in the books tells us that they clearly are not. Or that being the "word of God" is no kind of guarantee. And the writer of the book against God could claim some sort of just as reliable "non-divine inspiration".
The Bible is not literally THE Word of God because it was not written by God or by a Messenger OF God... At most, the Bible was divinely inspired, but God also allowed there to be errors in the Bible, as we all know there are errors in it....
Anyone can claim anything. The question is whether they have any evidence to back up their claims.
And no, you don't have reliable evidence. Others do not see it, cannot see it.
Reliable is just a word, no need to get all caught up on one word because it distracts from what is relevant, which is WHY others do not SEE what I see. That is what you need to be asking yourself. You have some kind of fantasy that IF ONLY there was reliable evidence everyone would believe in God or my religion, but that is utterly illogical, given all the factors that need to be considered as to WHY people do not beleive. So that is what we should be discussing if you want to get to the bottom of the issue. :)
It could just as easily be delusion or error.
It could be, or it could be the truth from God for this age. Everyone has to determine that for themselves if they want to know, and no, not everyone will ever be able to see it. That is why Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

I can explain why the gate is narrow if you want to know. I already have that all written up and saved in a Word document, since I have been explaining it to an atheist friend on my forum for years. :D


Even if you cannot get through the gate, as a matter of logic it is important to understand why it is narrow and not wide.
My atheist friend still does not understand because he never really listens to my logical arguments, but I have confidence in you. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But the "inspired word" demonstrates that he forgot at times too. I guess that puts me at an even par with him.
Inspired word just means God inspired men to write the word, but men who were not omniscient wrote the word.
So if God inspires you, then you are on par with the men who wrote the Bible.
Nobody is on par with God because only God is omniscient.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Believe it or not, but simply saying it isn't so doesn't make it not so.
The same applies to what YOU believe. :D
Who said god was sad? Let's not be making up things because ve half vays of checking fibberers.
My bad. I should never speak for God. I have no idea how God feels, I was just guessing.
As Subduction Zone so rightly observes, god must have forgotten to turn on his Omnipotence device those days, along with his Omniscience ray.
No, God keeps that on at all times. :D
So god likely made another mistake when he repented, regretted, and was sorry for what he did. Boy, the poor old guy just can't get himself back on track, can he. Maybe it would help if you offered up a burnt ram like Moses did. :shrug:.
Maybe it would help all of you atheists if you got your nose out of the Bible and looked at more accurate scriptures that apply to this age.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I am always intrigued at the attention given to philosophical beliefs, and the dogmatic confidence some have in those beliefs. Many religious beliefs are examined, criticised, ridiculed & psychoanalyzed in this forum, but not much is given to atheism The title may put some off, but since the 'folly of religion' is a constant topic here on the forum, i thought it only fair to consider the folly of atheism. :D

And, since there is a disproportionately high number of vocal, proactive atheists here, a light hearted look at atheism should be welcome relief from the seriousness and intensity that some display.

A false dilemma
A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option.
(from wiki)

The dilemma presented is usually like this:

'If you cannot prove God's existence, then He does not exist!'

But, there are other possibilities, not just the 'either/or' of this dilemma.

1. God may have reasons, unknown to us, for not presenting a conspicuous presence.
2. God may reveal to some, but leave others wondering.
3. The Majesty and holiness of God may be too much for sinful man to observe, so God waits, to give opportunity to be reconciled.
4. Something has blinded the awareness of humans, so they are unable to perceive spiritual reality.
5. God does not reveal Himself, because He does not exist.

We do not have enough evidence, individually, to categorically declare one of these possibilities as 'truth!', and dismiss all others. Therefore, this argument is fallacious, based on a false dilemma.

Let's add a number 6.

6. Something about the nature of God makes it difficult to detect God.

Consider a bee swarm. They are of one heart and mind, but many bodies.

The Body of Christ
Panentheism

You cannot see God because you're looking for a queen bee. But suppose we are talking about a bee nest that somehow has no central queen? Where the hive itself is the only important part?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The same applies to what YOU believe. :D
As an agnostic, my belief, as it were, is simply; I'm not sure. So I'm not saying anything is or is not.

No, God keeps that on at all times. :D
So what do you imagine his excuse is for getting it wrong when he created man and made Saul the king of Israel? Actions he repented, regretted, or was sorry for.

Maybe it would help all of you atheists if you got your nose out of the Bible and looked at more accurate scriptures that apply to this age.
You mean that Genesis 6:6 and 1 Samuel 15:35 are inaccurate? Gotta ask how you know. How you know better than the scholars who translated them into English do. Moreover are you saying the Bible isn't ageless? That with age, passages like those in Genesis and 1 Samuel somehow become inaccurate; that they no longer mean what they once did?

.
 
I am always intrigued at the attention given to philosophical beliefs, and the dogmatic confidence some have in those beliefs. Many religious beliefs are examined, criticised, ridiculed & psychoanalyzed in this forum, but not much is given to atheism The title may put some off, but since the 'folly of religion' is a constant topic here on the forum, i thought it only fair to consider the folly of atheism. :D
I consider you exposed the fallacious argument for atheism against religion so I decided to also throw my hat into the ring from a societal perspective. :)

My contribution is to share from a Baha’i author who raises the social issue of the consequence atheism likely has on crime. He is German and works as a lawyer in Germany. His name is Udo Schaefer and his book is entitled “the light shineth in darkness.” It is translated from German into English. I should note Baha’is believe in the divine origin of mainline religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

As a lead in the author notes how differently death is viewed now than in the past as follows:

“Death, that decisive change which is part of man’s life, the complete change into another sphere of existence, has no place or value in the thinking of modern man. Killing and being killed is an integral part of our society, to a large extent because of its continual demonstration on the cinema and television screens; natural death, on the other hand, is made taboo, the thought of death is repressed and the last act which is in store for everyone is banished into the loneliness of sick-rooms, and death (and thus life as well) has no meaning.

In the past, people’s attitude to death was different: life was considered from the perspective of death; the hour-glass was the reminder, the memento mori, the constant and vivid representation of our transitoriness and the proof of how relative is earthly longing for happiness. We must remember that for Baha’is too, this is the right attitude for death, which terminates this earthly life, is at the same time, the gateway to true life into which we are born. Here man is suddenly faced with what he has done on earth, with the divine perfections he has achieved, in a word with what he is. Now it is that he has to account for his life on earth.

It is very fashionable today to question this responsibility by saying that man, being driven by his impulses and social pressures, has no freedom of action. This attitude has grave consequences for the individual who believes in it as well as for the society which treats him according to this belief. That man is, to a great extent, exposed to pressures and determined by them, is undeniable. But that man has the freedom of choice between good and evil is a fact which each one of us can experience every day and a truth proclaimed by all religions. And just as everyone is able to recognize God and His manifestations, See Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, LXXV (such as Moses, Christ, and Mohammad) everyone also has the capacity to accomplish the will of God as it manifests itself in the divine law; ‘God will not burden any soul beyond its capacity.’ Quran 2:287. Man has the power both to do good and evil (‘Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 60.) The idea that God, the law-giver, provides men with an absolute rule of conduct and imposes upon them the duty ‘to testify unto that which the Lord hath revealed, and follow that which He hath ordained in His mighty Book’, (Baha’u’llah, Words of Wisdom, Baha’i World Faith, p. 140) and that at the same time as creator, he has not endowed them with the capacity to fulfill this law, contradicts the concept of God’s justice and is absolutely unacceptable to religious thought. In this context, the statement: ‘Thou canst for thou shouldst’ (Immanuel Kant 1724-1804) is important. Therefore no one has to steal, no one has to commit adultery, no one has to get drunk, and no one has to smoke hashish. The theory which denies all human responsibility, on the assumption that man, bound by society’s restrictions and his own impulses has no freedom of action, is the logical consequence of atheism: ‘If God does not exist’, Dostoyevsky makes Ivan Karamazov say, ‘then everything is permitted; if there is no God, then everything is indifferent.’ Dostoyevsky means here that when man is his own law-giver and acknowledges no higher responsibility than the state courts, he can justify any crime.
 
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