The First Move

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Just a random thought to toss in here...... what's really important to you? Whether or not the water ripples... or what it does for you, that it sustains life. Is it really the water that you care about whether or not it ripples?

 

[Master Vigil]

The Eternal Tao is outside of our perception, but the natural Tao is not. Even though we do not percieve the true reality of the water rippling, we do know that we do not ripple. For we MAY not know what is outside of us, but we DO know what is within us. Lao Tzu also wrote...

"How do I know the ways of the world, by what is within me."

Therefore, the ability of knowing first takes place with the understanding of the self. If you understand that you do not ripple, than you know that you are not rippling with the water. Remember, the water rippling is not the Tao. It is simply the water rippling and is a product of the Tao. And it is through ourselves that we come to know that the water is rippling, Lao Tzu understood this.

And Teapot... It doesn't matter if the water ripples or not. The question could of been sufficient with any number of items. Like, when the wind blows, why do you not blow with it? When the snow falls, why do you not fall with it? Etc... The question was meant to encourage self understanding first, not the understanding of the external item first. Therefore, what the water does for me has no bearing on the question, nor does its ability to sustain life.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Master Vigil--

I don't disagree that humans do not "ripple" with water. I've said it over and over again, the fact is you don't have to ripple with the water to perceive it in a way contrary to how it actually exists (you could be seeing a mirage or something). All you know is that you perceive the water to ripple--to say you KNOW the water ripples is to say your eyesight cannot POSSIBLY be wrong.

Besides, now you're talking about Eternal versus natural Tao, when earlier you told me I can't divide up reality into groups as you have just done.

I think in your last post you've basically agreed with what I've been trying to say this whole time. The only thing you know for sure is the natural Tao (that you are SEEING the water rippling). You cannot possibly know the Eternal Tao (whether or not the water is "actually" rippling outside your inner world of senses). So we agree, you cannot know the water is rippling (Eternal Tao), you only know that you are perceiving inside of you (natural Tao) that water is rippling.

 

[Master Vigil]

The reason I know that the water is rippling is because I am not making it ripple, for I do not ripple. Therefore it must be rippling on its own accord. Whether it is rippling as I see it may be wrong, but I atleast know that I am not making it ripple. The Eternal Tao is the essence which is unknowable and inconceivable, however the natural Tao is the part of that Tao that does allow us to know it, even if partially. It is not a division of reality, only the part of that reality that we can concieve. This makes it no less real than the Eternal Tao, but simply is the part of the Tao we know about. And the natural Tao is that the water is rippling. The Eternal Tao is the inconcievable essence which created the water, the ripples, and everything. And from the understanding of the self, and knowing that we do not ripple, we come to the understanding that the rippling is happening on its own accord without our influence. Therefore, we know that we do not ripple with it. Whether or not what we are percieving as rippling is completely true or not in the outside world has no relevance. For we still know that whatever is happening outside of ourselves, is indeed outside of ourselves for we know ourselves truly enough to know that we do not "ripple." But the fact that the water may or may not be rippling in true reality had nothing to do with the question. The question was only to allow you to understand yourself enough to know that the water is rippling on its own accord, for it is not in your nature to ripple.

So to clear this up... I know for sure (self) that I do not ripple. Therefore, the water rippling (natural Tao) is indeed happening as such outside of me. And since I am indeed percieving it as such, and perception is not the one true reality (Eternal Tao), why, if, or how the water is rippling is not based on my perception, but my self understanding. Therefore, I know myself (the whole point of the question) and I know I do not ripple.

 

[Runt]

This is a really funny conversation... you guys are arguing over two very different things: Whether reality as we see it is real and trustworthy or merely illusion, and whether we can differentiate ourselves from that illusion by understanding our Self.

When incense burns, its original form changes, and then it lifts away as smoke. When your life burns, it changes. Does it change for the better, or for the worse? Either way, what lifts away as smoke?

Well, I would like to think that as my life moves along and I change, I change for the better. However... I think it might be kinda circular. I think we change for the worse, and then, if we are lucky, for the better. let me try to explain: A baby is not as bound by the binary system of meaning because she does not have words and concepts yet to differentiate things... so she is able to perceive the Tao better than an adult would. As the baby grows, she learns concepts that gradually blind her to the oneness of reality. As an adult, she can no longer perceive the Tao as clearly as she could as a child, UNLESS she eventually realizes that we have this binary system of meaning that masks the oneness of the Tao... at which point she can start "unlearning" and seeing the world with a "beginner's mind".

I think illusion lifts away as smoke... ideally. For a Taoist or another person who recognizes that our "reality" is an illusion. For "other people" (lol) I think reality might lift away as smoke.

Ok, so our perception of the reality is that we see the water rippling. The "one reality" may be something different though--after all, our eyesight isn't perfect all the time right? Again, the only thing we know for sure is that we are SEEING the water ripple.

I agree.

Sounds like your boy Lao-tzu agrees with me! The true nature of the water is a reality that "cannot be told" "cannot be seen". It's a "form that includes all forms". So, even though the water ripples in your unique perception, the "reality" or Tao is that the water doesn't ripple/not ripple--the Tao is the reality outside your perception which "is beyond all comprehension". Looks like Lao-tzu and I agree that the water only appears to ripple to you!

Still agree.

The Eternal Tao is outside of our perception, but the natural Tao is not. Even though we do not percieve the true reality of the water rippling, we do know that we do not ripple. For we MAY not know what is outside of us, but we DO know what is within us.

Agree.

Besides, now you're talking about Eternal versus natural Tao, when earlier you told me I can't divide up reality into groups as you have just done.

Allow me to try to explain. They are not both "reality". The Eternal Tao is reality... but it is unknowable. The Natural Tao is our illusion of reality... but it is the only reality we have and can work with, and as such we have to deal with it. Yin and yang and all other divisions exist within the Natural Tao but no such division occurs within the Eternal Tao, because this division is an illusion (but is reality for us). The Natural Tao is our perception of the Eternal Tao, and is as real to us as all other illusions within the Natural Tao. Do you understand?

 

[Master Vigil]

Listen, we are talking about something that had no bearing on the original question. Everyone agrees that the water does not ripple because we make it ripple, for we know that we do not ripple, right?? Thats the whole point of the question. If you make it too complicated, than everything gets crazy. Simplicity is the way of the Tao. If you want to talk about perception, we must make a different conversation.

There is no doubt a world outside of us. How we percieve it does not change the reality of it, only our perception of it. But the beauty of self understanding is once you understand yourself, and understand your perception, you can understand the world outside of that perception. Both of the Tao's are reality, the natural Tao is simply part of the unknowable Tao that we do perceive. This does not limit its reality, for only our perception of it is limited. Perception is separate from reality, for some may say perception is reality, this is not true, reality is reality, and perception is perception.

And runt, again, do not complicate things. What lifts away as life goes on. The past. Could be a happy past, could be a sad past. But its still the past.

 

[Master Vigil]

It lies in the nature of grand virtue to follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao?
It is something elusive and evasive,
Elusive and evasive and yet it contains within itself a form.
Elusive and evasive and yet it includes within itself a substance.
Shadowy and dim and et it contains within itself a core of vitality.
The core of vitality is very real,
It contains within itself an unfailing sincerity.
Throughout the ages Its name has been preserved
In order to recall the beginning of things.
How do I know the ways of all things at the beginning?
By what is within me.

Chapter 21 - Tao Te Ching
----

Without going out of your door,
You can know the ways of the world.
Without peeping through your window,
You can see the way of heaven.
The farther you go,
The less you know.
Thus the sage knows without traveling,
Sees without looking,
And achieves without ado.

Chapter 47 - Tao Te Ching.
----

Both of these chapters shows that the ability to know the ways of the world comes first and foremost with the ability to know one's self. Perception is perception, but once tou get past perception and understand your true self, you can understand true reality.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Master Vigil -

I think you missed my point. Why is it you chose water? Why did you not choose wind? Water and wind are very different. The causes of wind blowing and water rippling can be very very different. So in essence, it does matter, in a way, what it is you chose.

 

[Master Vigil]

The choice of the item does not have any relevance to the origianl question. The cause of the wind still is not myself, so therefore it does not matter what I chose. Don't make it too complicated.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Master Vigil, whether or not this has any bearing on the original question....

You say we know the water is rippling, because we ourselves do not ripple....but it doesn't matter! Your eyes can see things that aren't there, and therefore I do not know the water is rippling.....I only know that I'm seeing it ripple.

Come on--I'm right about this...admit it

 

[Master Vigil]

I never said you weren't right about our perception being false sometimes. But that doesn't mean that the world is a complete illusion. We are able to know the truth, the truth about ourselves. And from a Taoist standpoint, once we know ourselves we know the rest of the world. So even though it is possible that the water may not be rippling. If you know yourself, you will understand that it either does or does not ripple.

For a long time I never knew what was real or fake. For I sensed things that others did not, ALL THE TIME!!!! And it freaked me out. I was afraid of my insanity, I was afraid of my ignorance. But through more than 5 or 6 years of meditation and work in the spirit world as well as the physical, I came to know myself. And only then did I understand what was real and fake. Lies or truth. Illusions or facts. Keep in mind I do not know the Eternal Truth, but I am able to discern what I sense to be true or not. I'm not sure if you will believe that or not. But it is true, perception is not always reality. I will give you that.

But as long as we understand that the original question had no bearing on that whatsoever. And as long as you understand the purpose and meaning of the question. Thats what matters most.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

On page 3, Master Vigil said: >> we do know that the water is rippling.<<

However, if >>it is true, perception is not always reality<< then we do not know that the water is rippling.

 

[Master Vigil]

Once one understands one's self and then understands the ways of the world, one will know whether or not the water is rippling. Perception is only limited by the physical senses. Once you get past these senses, there is no limits.

 

[Ceridwen018]

What if a duck swims by and messes up the ripple?

lol, just joking around. Game on!