The First Amendment be Damned.

[Skwim]

"Some parents in West Virginia are fighting to put an end to a Bible class in public schools.

For nearly 80 years, Bible stories have been taught in Mercer County as part of the regular school week and they’re extremely popular in the community. In a new lawsuit, however, a major lobby for the separation of church and state is arguing that “popular” is not the same as “legal,” reports CBS News correspondent Tony Dokoupil.

In church, Cherilyn Thomas has built a deep relationship with God. And as a parent, she appreciates that her daughter, Teagan, can continue that relationship at school.

“It is very important that what we teach at home can be moved on to the school and instilled there and moved to the church and it’s still there so that it moves in a circle,” Thomas said.

The school portion of that circle is provided by a program called “Bible in the Schools.”

“Is it a religious course?” Dokoupil asked.

“It’s the Bible,” Thomas replied.

“Is that a yes?” Dokoupil asked.

Comments like these are part of what attracted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based lobby for the separation of church and state. In a lawsuit filed jointly last month with Jane Doe – a mother of a Mercer County kindergartener who wishes to remain anonymous -- the group accused the county of running “Bible indoctrination classes” that endorse the literal truth of the Bible.

“I would say it is the Bible. It doesn’t teach one religion. It’s not a Baptist Bible, it’s not a Presbyterian Bible; it’s the Bible, and it is God.”

Created by volunteers in 1939, the program now provides more than 4,000 kids a weekly course of Bible study.

In a statement, Mercer County schools said the Bible is worthy of study for its “literary and historic qualities.” The question for the courts is whether it’s actually being taught that way.

“To completely eliminate a Bible course would be an unprecedented and drastic step,” said Hiram Sasser, a lawyer representing the school board. “The only issue it’s ever arises is any kind of implementation.”

Sasser said the school is open to changes to the curriculum if needed to keep the program going. But in its lawsuit, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is not asking for changes; it wants the program to go.

The school board has just a few weeks to respond to the courts to prove that they can effectively keep the program."
source​

THOUGHTS?


.

 

[sayak83]

"Some parents in West Virginia are fighting to put an end to a Bible class in public schools.

For nearly 80 years, Bible stories have been taught in Mercer County as part of the regular school week and they’re extremely popular in the community. In a new lawsuit, however, a major lobby for the separation of church and state is arguing that “popular” is not the same as “legal,” reports CBS News correspondent Tony Dokoupil.

In church, Cherilyn Thomas has built a deep relationship with God. And as a parent, she appreciates that her daughter, Teagan, can continue that relationship at school.

“It is very important that what we teach at home can be moved on to the school and instilled there and moved to the church and it’s still there so that it moves in a circle,” Thomas said.

The school portion of that circle is provided by a program called “Bible in the Schools.”

“Is it a religious course?” Dokoupil asked.

“It’s the Bible,” Thomas replied.

“Is that a yes?” Dokoupil asked.

Comments like these are part of what attracted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based lobby for the separation of church and state. In a lawsuit filed jointly last month with Jane Doe – a mother of a Mercer County kindergartener who wishes to remain anonymous -- the group accused the county of running “Bible indoctrination classes” that endorse the literal truth of the Bible.

“I would say it is the Bible. It doesn’t teach one religion. It’s not a Baptist Bible, it’s not a Presbyterian Bible; it’s the Bible, and it is God.”

Created by volunteers in 1939, the program now provides more than 4,000 kids a weekly course of Bible study.

In a statement, Mercer County schools said the Bible is worthy of study for its “literary and historic qualities.” The question for the courts is whether it’s actually being taught that way.

“To completely eliminate a Bible course would be an unprecedented and drastic step,” said Hiram Sasser, a lawyer representing the school board. “The only issue it’s ever arises is any kind of implementation.”

Sasser said the school is open to changes to the curriculum if needed to keep the program going. But in its lawsuit, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is not asking for changes; it wants the program to go.

The school board has just a few weeks to respond to the courts to prove that they can effectively keep the program."
source​

THOUGHTS?


.

Having a Bible course in a public school is a travesty. As soon as it is banned the better.

 

[allfoak]

There are lots of other amendments. we can't get rid of just one?

 

[Quintessence]

Having a Bible course in a public school is a travesty. As soon as it is banned the better.

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

 

[allfoak]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.
I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

More persecution of the downtrodden Christian minority.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

I don't think it is up to the students. It sounds like it is up to the school or the parents.

“Do all the kids in your class go to Bible class too?” Dokoupil asked.

“Only one goes out and plays on the computer, because she can’t hear what the Bible says,” Teagan said.

“How come?” Dokoupil asked.

“Because her dad just doesn’t want her to hear all the Bible stuff,” Teagan said.

“What do you think about that?” Dokoupil asked.

“I think that that’s bad. She needs to go to Bible class,” Teagan said.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

Here's one of the problems:

“Do all the kids in your class go to Bible class too?” Dokoupil asked.

“Only one goes out and plays on the computer, because she can’t hear what the Bible says,” Teagan said.

“How come?” Dokoupil asked.

“Because her dad just doesn’t want her to hear all the Bible stuff,” Teagan said.

“What do you think about that?” Dokoupil asked.

“I think that that’s bad. She needs to go to Bible class,” Teagan said.

Deal moved her daughter, Sophie, out of the school system after she was bullied for opting out.

“They taunted her about it. They told her that she was going to hell, that I was going to hell, that her father was going to hell,” Deal said.


“How did you feel when you heard that story?” Dokoupil asked.

“It was very hurtful of course because she is my daughter and I don’t want her to hurt,” Deal said.

 

[sayak83]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

No. Religion is an ideology. If courses covering a specific ideology only is taught in a public school (even if optional) then the state is promoting an ideology over others. One can as well have a class on the the writings of Marx or on the Quran and its recitation and exegesis.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

Generally the issue with first ammendment and schools isn't whether or not it's required. A prayer session where students aren't required to participate is still a violation of its teacher run and uses tax payed time and resources. A Bible class gives unequal emphasis to Christian theology. If it was part of an incorporated comparative religions class, that'd be one thing, but this isn't a neutral or inclusive objective overlook, it's a church class where it doesn't belong.

 

[sayak83]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.
I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

And they were wrong. Many people in the US did not think twice about the supposed immorality of segregation or mixed race marriage either.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.
I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

When they stopped caring about the "Curse of Ham" to support segregation, they stopped caring about the source of the story, I guess.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.
I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

That it used to be okay isn't a good reason to continue it though. There used to be all sorts of perpetuated sexism, racism and religious exclusivity and historical revisionism in old text books too.

 

[allfoak]

Change does not always mean better.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Generally the issue with first ammendment and schools isn't whether or not it's required. A prayer session where students aren't required to participate is still a violation of its teacher run and uses tax payed time and resources. A Bible class gives unequal emphasis to Christian theology. If it was part of an incorporated comparative religions class, that'd be one thing, but this isn't a neutral or inclusive objective overlook, it's a church class where it doesn't belong.

Not to mention that the school is playing favoritism to that one religion and that will serve as validation of that particular religion to the children. I mean if the school is only teaching that one religion they are going see that as significant.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.
I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

Change does not always mean better.

None of what you just said is a real argument for why the Bible should be taught in public school k-12.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Change does not always mean better.

Neither does tradition.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Why?

Public Schools receive federal funding. So in essence, the taxpayers are paying that school to teach a religion. Not as an anthropology course, but as a religious course. It's fine for private schools geared towards that religion, but not public schools.

On a personal note, if the Christians can get all bent out of shape over "their money" going towards abortions and the like (which it doesn't), then non-Christians can and should get just as bent over paying for classes like these, or national prayer services (that are always Christian), or the President's inevitably Christian "spiritual advisor".

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

But it is required.

The red flag here is that the complaint was filed anonymously. There is immense cultural pressure that makes it mandatory. The mother is afraid to speak openly.

Like those few brace high school athletes who have to say the pledge of allegiance in the middle of a full basketball court with the rest of the team huddles around their coach in prayer.

Why do the religious get to normalize cultural behavior?

Edit: turns out, @9-10ths_Penguin had a similar, better response. Bullying and social conformity go hand in hand.

 

[allfoak]

I am aware that very few people here think that the Bible should stay in the school.
I am unable to make a case for it staying there either because what is happening is the first amendment is now being interpreted differently than it once was.
I can't fight against interpretation.
I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law.
People should not get their own way just because they get a little offended.
nuff said.