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Featured The feet are made for walking

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by osgart, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    if you have evidence of where that Objectivity is. can prove it Objective. prove what causes it. as it is not God. prove its use than sure. currently you (not just you but any making that argument) lack the evidence to prove it objective.
    the whole of Human history states it subjective. other than the few agreed upon Laws that most share. but that's due to a Logical conclusion, not a inherit one. for Good and Evil to exist. everything must either fall into one category or the other. even things that don't yet exist or are thought up. if its Objective than its equal to 1+1=2 and is indisputable. it must be repeatable too.
     
  2. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Adaption is evolution, which is intelligence. :)

    Thanks for the kind conversation, my friend.. it is rare these days.

    Willpower seems, in my perception as desire+energy. It is part of an innate, animating source for any individual specie.

    The evolution of consciousness is quite interesting. It would be an act of "God" for consciousness to arise/emerge from nothing when the human being arose.

    Now, for the "theory of evolution," to begin to "start" making sense to me... every species would have varying levels of consciousness/intelligence with gradual emergence.
     
  3. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    no as for instance a zebra does not paint stripes on itself. it gained them through a mutation that gave it an advantage and did not get it killed. no mentality played in it. in some cases namely us it can play a Role in Evolution. but it is Not Evolution by Definition of both Evolution and intelligence

    Intelligence is reading a book and learning a skill. that skill is not evolution. it can play a role in it granted but only in select cases namely Humans. it can be caused by Evolution. and cause it. but it is not it
     
    #23 Father, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  4. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    I desire wings. it does not mean my body will grant me them. desire can play a role in it. for example, we were cold when migrating north so learned to turn fur into clothes which caused us to lose hair as it was unneeded. but that's only in us

    as for your misuse of the word Energy. I really wish you and the mediums would stop misusing that word.
    energy is in a scientific sense
    en·er·gy
    ˈenərjē/
    noun
    1. power derived from the utilization of physical or chemical resources, especially to provide light and heat or to work machines.
    stop using it as a metaphorical umbrella for some spiritual crap. please.
     
  5. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    it won't make sense if you keep looking at it through that mindset. throw your current perspective out the window. it makes sense if you do.
    the process itself is the addition of random mutation that grants a favorable or neutral effect and is therefore passed on. a lot of the time it does not even play any role an example of our retina being upside down. while intelligence in small instances can affect evolution it is not evolution nor is a direct effector in most cases.

    I've given a host of examples in my comments. you confuse data transfer with intelligence. as the definition of intelligence is

    in·tel·li·gence
    inˈteləjəns/
    noun
    1. 1.
      the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
    data transfer being cells and parts of the body acting on DNA Orders. like your heart beating. or your stomach telling you its hungry.


    How Evolution Works
     
  6. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    The human being and it's logic and mind are not exempt from Nature. The human being and its intelligence, logic, consciousness came from Nature. If Nature were objective, are humans not of nature since they are subjective?

    If logic is not inherit, where did it come from?
    Bio-logical: life-logic.

    1+1=2 is not objective for children who don't know mathematics, or for someone who doesn't and can't understand. It is learned or is it innate? It is also not objective for external nature if it can't think, do math, or didn't design the mathematical language and program. So, math would be subjective, non-existent, and only humanly according to your ideas.
     
  7. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Will and power. I said "desire" and "energy." Then you give me a definition of energy with the first word of it as power. Where is the metaphorical umbrella?

    Why not? According to evolution theory... if you and enough humans keep jumping off of a cliff, wings "could" start to evolve for a benefit and advantage. Does natural selection have limitations?
     
  8. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    yes but even a wolf can do 1+1=2. try explaining morality to one. you again need to provide evidence it is Objective. you have provided nothing.
    Logic is
    log·ic
    ˈläjik/
    noun

    1. reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
      "experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"
      synonyms: reasoning, line of reasoning, rationale, argument, argumentation
      "the logic of their argument"

    2. a system or set of principles underlying the arrangements of elements in a computer or electronic device so as to perform a specified task.
    so cells sending signals to the brain would be Logic. that's, not intelligence it did not acquire Logic. one either has logic or they don't it cant be acquired
     
  9. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    that statement proves you lack any understanding of evolution. Have you heard the term Darwin award yes? a snarky insult given to the stupid. the idea itself only works if the person has not yet bred. as if someone has a negative mutation and ends up dying because of it. they lose the game. the game being reproduction. evolution happens due to mutations randomly occurring that either grant a positive or negative or neutral effect. I've given examples to such. a Giraffe being born with a slightly longer neck giving it an advantage and reaching more leaves and in turn surviving better and passing it on. it did not consciously develop a longer neck. it was a random mutation that happened to be a positive. no intelligence required. it did not look at the leaves higher up and think "if only i had a longer neck" and willed itself to. no that is absurd. it simply happened to have a longer neck by a genetic dice role as genetics are prone to mutation.
     
  10. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    A wolf can do 1+1=2 but doesn't possess any measure consciousness, logic, or intelligence? I'd have to be pretty blind to not see altruism at work in nature amongst all species. Or so engulfed in idealism, dogma, and fanaticism of a theory to not see the profound and awe of reality.

    Every individual specie contains information/logic/intelligence and are electronically/energetically charged and perform specific functions.

    Cells communicating energetically/electronically occur in every specie.
     
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  11. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    furthermore its impossible for us to evolve wings. our bones are not hollow. are anatomy does not support having them. amoung a host of variables. birds did not just jump off cliffs till they summoned wings out of nothing. they gradually evolved with them over time from a more base species. they probably started gliding with them before even flying. but none of it was conscious or caused by the environment. it was due to random mutations holding a positive or negative effect. those with it lived longer and reproduced more and so it was passed on. its why some birds now cant fly even with having wings
     
  12. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    again do I have to paste the dictionary definition of Intelligence a 5th time. animals acting on programming is not intelligence. its acting on programming

    intelligence is learning that rubbing two sticks together produces fire and teaching one's kids. we are not born with the knowledge of how to make a fire it is Learned not inherit now your intelligence as in how much you can learn and how fast is around 80% caused by genetics and in turn evolution but it again is not Evolution by definition. they can affect each other but are not synonymous
     
  13. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    The first mistake is I don't misunderstand "evolution theory." I find much of it as implausible. Laugh a little... I know what I was implying.

    The giraffe has a measure of consciousness. It is also trying to survive.

    Correct, it doesn't mean that it wills itself a longer neck. I'm not sure where you got that impression. (Although how would you or I know what occurs within a giraffe?) Since "evolution theory" is laced with hypotheticals, could's, and beliefs... why not add that a giraffe could maybe think?

    In order for mutations to occur, logic and information must perform the specific innate task of carrying out the function.

    There is supposed to be no purpose in "evolution theory." Why is the purpose given(to reproduce) and desire given(to survive?" Who gave this "objective game?"
     
  14. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    The ability to learn is inherit. In order to learn, there must be a learner.

    Species teach their offspring. Adaption is intelligence. All species have the inherit ability to learn, acquire knowledge, communicate. Genes also need a source/driver in order to do anything or perform a specific task based on its logic/information.

    Going back to mathematics then... it is subjective and learned, not objective and inherit.
     
  15. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    no, as the mutation is a randomly occurring event. Cancer is a genetic mutation. one that is fatal.
    we don't know why we have an inherent desire to survive and reproduce at least I don't know. however, Science is not about assuming God did it when we lack answers or assuming magic. its the admission of ignorance and not making any assumptions without proper evidence. you may find evolution an implausible occurrence yet you demonstrate a lack of understanding of it. it holds libraries worth of evidence that it is true. it's observably true. unless you have as much evidence to the contrary.
     
  16. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    its subjective in the process in many instances yes. but the result itself is not. you have a stick. I have a stick. put them together we have two sticks. that is in subjective reference that we are only counting each stick in our hands and not the entirety of sticks in the universe and we have an agreed upon notion of what a stick is. math is something any being of higher thinking would require, but it is universal so long as both beings have it. if we were to meet an alien species today the most probable way of communication is through simple math. it could not even travel to our planet if it did not have the notion of mathematics. now it may count flublegoops instead of sticks and use faproloops instead of numbers but if you broke down both number systems it still equates to 1's 2's 3's 4's etc

    genes function in code which does have a logic and does contain information but it is not information added other than mutational flaws. therefore it is not intelligence. you are born with the knowledge that being the cells in your heart responding to pule to beat and the cells in your arms responding to outside influence causing pain.

    we learn to make fire. we teach our kids. we cook food over it. overtime due to eating cooked food which both gives us more nutrients and allows easier digestion our digestive systems adapt around the knew variables given. not consciously. more so those with an inherent ability to absorb more nutrients from cooked food passed the trait on. that extra energy gained goes to our brain which allows it to become bigger and more complex. but this is due to again random instances of mutation that grant an advantage. not our brain consciously adapting to it by willpower. but through those random dice rolls that worked in our favor. unless i myself am getting something wrong in evolution i am no biologist after all
     
    #36 Father, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  17. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    It's easy to give the notion to someone that with the distant past..."given enough time anything is possible" and such and such could and are believed to do such and such over a course of billions of years no one can see and observe. But in the present... it's humorous when it's acknowledged that something is impossible.

    In the evolution theory bible, the book of Bob the Reptile, verse 12:22-24, thus sayeth the reptilites... we shall accidentally keep waddling ourselves off of cliffs, until one of us accidentally/randomly has many consecutive miracle innate positive mutations, that transform into a stub, and over a course of millions of years my brethren reptilites, we shall fly through the heavens!
     
  18. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Hey, thanks for the chat. Even though we may disagree on stuff... I enjoyed hearing your perspective on things. Will respond tomorrow at some point to this. Have a good one.
     
  19. Little Lunch

    Little Lunch Atheist

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    I can will myself a longer neck.
    Sometimes, in the morning, it does it all by itself without any will at all.
     
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  20. Club Tropícana

    Club Tropícana New Member

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    What would life look like on planet earth if it was just created naturally and not by a greater intelligence, in what way would it be different than what we see today and how do you know? You have no other identical planet earths to test if what you're saying is actually true or not.
     
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