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Featured The feet are made for walking

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by osgart, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Anyone who doesn't see the logical intention of the human body is blind. Everything a body is serves a purpose for to do something. The art of nature is self evident.

    Why would I need to look further then that?

    All else reasoning is fallacious.

    I will grant you that there is no God of divinity.

    But perhaps we are created ruthlessly by a greater intelligence and it's forces of natural formation. We are probably the subjects of an experimental creator (s).
     
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  2. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    What about nipples on men?
     
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  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    artists discretion
     
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  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Aliens with a masochistic sense of humor?
     
  5. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    That to me is a total mystery. I was thinking the creators would be more than just aliens though. Aliens wouldn't measure up to the progress they would need to make in order to invent life.
     
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  6. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    gallbladder. tailbone. A backward retina and our brain has to correct it. the fact a women's pelvis is a bit to small to allow a baby's head to pass through without a struggle. the fact our jaws are quite small that crowded or crooked teeth are pretty much common. and how easily they erode and rot. look at many other animals. the giraffe has its spinal cord if I recall going around its neck in an odd fashion that serves no beneficial purpose. there is no real logic to evolution. there is order. but there are many things within animals that serve no purpose and are either remanents of past forms or mutations that did not get the animal killed so they were passed on.
    zoology sort of destroy's the argument we are the direct result of any higher power. as we are very flawed. now does that mean a higher power could not have started life off? that's still possible since while our planet can support life there is only one tree of life. one starting point. if our planet was hospitable as we claim there should be a forest of trees of life each with different characteristics. there is not. and we ourselves can't seem to start life off either. it's really difficult, but any direct interference by an outside force that somehow instills intelligence into our design is completely false both in lacking evidence and contradictory facts showing how flawed humans are.
     
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  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I never implied perfection in design. Only that there is intelligence in the poor makings of life.
     
  8. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Okay, but until you establish the existence of this creator and demonstrate that it created the human body, I will go with science.
     
  9. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Perfection was never implied.

    However, in order to understand or know perfection, we have to understand and know imperfection. We have to see imperfection/flaws or we would not be able to see perfection.

    But, good points in noticing flaws and imperfections. Benefits or purpose, mankind doesn't know everything. With perfect teeth, there would be no need for dentists. There are also a lot of things in this world that are evil, and I think that you are also acknowledging this.

    Those really do nothing to destroy an argument for a higher power. Any higher power with that kind of creative ability, doesn't need to be all "good or perfect." An evil/flawed higher power could have created this world, or both a perfectly good and perfectly evil power could have created this world. And as they seem fit.

    Back to what was actually said in the thread:
    Bio-logical: life-logic.
    Intelligence is very self-evident. Evolution is intelligence, adaption is intelligence. Species trying to survive is intelligence. It's all innate. Just as all intelligence doesn't have to be perfectly good.

    Intelligence/information magically/randomly/spontaneously popping out of thin air would then be also completely false.
     
  10. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    a higher power would be far superior to us and may not even comprehend what a dentist is. they would find the notion absurd. so suggesting we were designed flawed just so things like dentists could exist. which it seems you are implying. is just retarded. more so highly improbable than just us evolving naturally like every other animal with no outside interference.

    As for "Evil" while I rarely use the term for something I highly disagree with there is no Good or Evil. it's all subjective. if it was objective all would agree on it all Law would be the same and no one would act Evil. as for why would you? at least 90% of the population would not. it's through its subjectivity in that in every villain's mind they are the Good guy's that Good and Evil don't exist. there is agreed upon morality based on the logical notion that society functions better with ground rules. but that does not mean any inherit Law.

    "The Creed of the Assassin Brotherhood teaches us that nothing is forbidden to us. Once, I thought that meant we were free to do as we would. To pursue our ideals, no matter the cost. I understand now. Not a grant of permission. The Creed is a warning. Ideals too easily give way to dogma. Dogma becomes fanaticism. No higher power sits in judgement of us. No supreme being watches to punish us for our sins. In the end, only we ourselves can guard against our obsessions. Only we can decide whether the road we walk carries too high a toll. We believe ourselves redeemers, avengers, saviours. We make war on those who oppose us, and they, in turn, make war on us. We dream of leaving our stamp upon the world... even as we give our lives in a conflict that will be recorded in no history book. All that we do, all that we are, begins and ends with ourselves." - Arno Dorian
     
  11. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    Evolution is not really Intelligence. as in animals that evolved from ancestorial species did not consciously do so by will. it's through random mutations that did not get the animal killed. many of them can be useless and passed on simply because it does not get them killed. human difference's in eye and hair color serve no adaptable benefit other than a social one. the first humans with blonde hair and blue eyes for example. it did not allow them better blending or any inherit superiority. it just gave them a unique appearance that some favored more so than others which may have allowed them to survive and thrive in the social environment but it gives no benefit in the natural one and was not a conscious creation.
     
  12. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Enlighten as to how you know ones thinking and how'd they find such absurd.

    Not implying that. True or false: With perfect teeth there would be no need for dentists.

    Without imperfection, one would not know or understand perfection. A poor, unnecessary judgement. "Retarded."

    Or good and evil are intermixed and one cannot discern which from which so they choose to to play the "subjective" isn't reality card. Without proper discerning, it would be easy for anyone to falsely label something that is good as evil and evil as good. Once again, if there were no evil, one wouldn't know or understand good. If there were no good, one wouldn't know or understand evil. Many are starting to evolve the beliefs that they are a machine and so mechanical to the point that can barely can recognize experience, feeling, conscience, they are basically dead and unconscious(unaware.) Some may envy and admire this. This is also dogma, evolving into fanaticism with the initial birth as an ideal. My brother-in law once told me about how his friend in California had his young child stolen, the child was killed, cut open to place drugs inside, sewed up, and used to smuggle them across the border. Is this neither good or evil? The men who did such a thing, clearly they are different and not like most... does this mean they didn't know what they were doing was evil or that their good conscience wasn't working? Elaborate on how you find this not evil? If discernment of good and evil has been made to not exist, what is your discernment to make a judgement on something being "retarded?" If your words were true, there would be no such thing as retarded and nonretarded. They would be subjective. How could you know what retarded is without knowing what non-retarded was?

    I can't take that assassins creed card with much weight, or society giving laws... it is contradictory to other posts that I've read from you and the beliefs of strict determinism. If strict determinism were accurate, humans would have naturally evolved to have no knowledge of good and evil, as well as having no desire for justice, as well as not having the capability in deciding anything for themselves. But, for another discussion.
     
  13. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    I meant that our design had intelligent influence as retarded. not that one needs imperfection to understand perfection.
     
  14. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    So bacteria.... working in communities, communicating with each other, self-replicating, giving one another what is needed, adjusting themselves in order to survive.... is not intelligence at work?

    What is "them" and the "self" that replicates? Is this not intelligence/information at work?

    The purpose is to survive but it's not a purpose at same time? It's accidental survival? Is there a survivor, surviving? Animals don't have innate information or instinct to try and survive, they just do accidentally by random mutations?

    When many "scientific" humans define intelligence as the ability to adapt to ones environment, it only applies to humans(who have trillions of living bacteria) and not bacteria or other species?
     
  15. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    Good. a subjective term. depends on one's philosophical outlook. for around 3000 years going off Roman and Greek philosophy good could be seen as what feels good. it varies greatly. bad varies greatly too. murder. the taking of life can be seen ad 100% bad. and yet 100% good if for let says, God. even within one's philosophical outlook, it's hardly black and white. and good and evil are black and white. it's either good or its bad. there is no room for middle ground if it exists. it does not. the world is a mural of gray's and it's our personal mission to decide what is light gray and what is dark gray. but we are all colorblind and can only see gray. as its all the same shade. we each see different shades in it but like the theoretical problem of "is your red my red?" its sewn with subjectivity. we can logically deduce what is "Good" or Beneficial for us. but that does not give it the Authority of a higher power. for Good and Evil to exist there but be a sole arbiter and giver of it. on whose Authority?

    as for your reference to a child being killed. that's Subjectively Evil to you. to me. to the Judicial system. but that does not grant it Objective Authority as Evil. as it depends on again perspective. in the middle, east children are molested as apart of the culture. that's not evil to them. if they held more power they would see not doing so evil. and we would be none the wiser. that's just truth.

    there is no Good or Evil in nature. if there was an Objective Good it would be following one's instincts which we already do. if there was a God who passed down supreme Authority on the matter it would be programmed in us. there is no reason it would not be as well known and provable as gravity. yet there is not.

    as for your foundation of needing a Yin for a Yang. how can you know that reality is real without fiction? one does not need an equivalency in all matters.
     
  16. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    thats not evolution. bacteria working together is not evolution. evolution is
    ev·o·lu·tion
    ˌevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/
    noun
    1. 1.
      the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
      synonyms: Darwinism, natural selection
      "his interest in evolution"
    2. 2.
      the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
    evolution is the adding of mutation to an animal overtime to the point where it becomes an entirely different species. that's in lamens terms. the only evolution that holds any Intelligence as intelligence is
    in·tel·li·gence
    inˈteləjəns/
    noun
    1. 1.
      the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
    would be us. since our conscious actions did affect our evolution. as most our evolution was done through conscious action example the use of fire or acquiring of animal pelts as clothes .bacteria do not need higher levels of processing to function. it lacks any levels of thought. it just functions like a light switch. an animal does not evolve by thinking about it. it just happens. nor can acquiring new skills count as evolution.

    you are confusing your science's my friend. we are the only animals that consciously adapt and in a way consciously evolve in base terms. we still cant evolve through willpower. it's through small gradual changes due to mutation. we may one day be able to tweak and change it. but others animals can not a giraffe's neck did not get long through willpower. it got long because giraffe's with longer necks survived and passed on the trait while those with shorter necks died. this took a long time to occur
     
  17. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    its the execution of DNA orders. it's not a conscious endeavor. intelligence is the acquiring of knowledge and skills and using it. it while having an effect on evolution is not evolution.
     
  18. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    Perhaps that built in judgement as to what's good and bad are an innate mechanism. Latent potential to evolve its awareness. A program latently within, but gradually evolving and resurrecting.
    There doesn't have to be a middle ground in everything. Even an evil human being is capable of doing good. And a good human being is capable of doing evil. The 2 co-exist and are interconnected. It just means that this world is shared and dual, as duality exists within as well. If there are multiple forces at work, some would be children of good and some children of evil.

    We can only begin to understand external Nature when we first discover our internal nature. Good point on the blindness. If we are blind(unaware) then we can't see(be aware.) But everyone is not blind... awareness levels vary greatly, this does not mean awareness doesn't exist. What is known and revealed also varies within human beings. Just because, say I'm unaware of something, yet you are aware of that something or vice versa... why should you or I judge the other as wrong or something not existing because of "objectivity?" (If I don't see it, no one can thinking.)

    Good and/or evil consciences are already innate in us.
     
  19. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    DNA "orders" seem like a guided program of orders containing information.

    When environment changes, bacteria develop that knowledge, communicate that knowledge, share that knowledge, to adapt and then using that to survive.
     
  20. Father

    Father Devourer of Truth

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    knowledge. it's not conscious. it would be equal to setting your hand on fire and your cells communicating to your brain to move your hand. that's not intelligence though. nor does that grant evolution. again evolution in 99% involuntary due to mutation. flaws.

    i get your point but your using the wrong wording and confusing terms
     
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