1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Fallen Angel

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by MonkeyFire, Feb 24, 2021.

  1. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,414
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    Faithful Jesus believer
    And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    If Adam (mankind) fell for eating the forbidden fruit of fighting, and God says now he has become like one of us, why is Adam fallen then, would it be true that the fallen archangel of light, Lucifer is a moral being, not a satan at all, is God fallen (in love) too?

    thoughts and opinions please
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,290
    Ratings:
    +26,588
    Religion:
    Kemetic Monotheism
    The what now?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  3. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,414
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    Faithful Jesus believer
    knowledge of good and evil means war in my understanding.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  4. The Hammer

    The Hammer White Wolf - kvite ulfh
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,278
    Ratings:
    +4,326
    Religion:
    Druidry
    I've always considered the forbidden fruit to either be eating the Flesh of Animals (requires killing). Or the imbibing of Fermented Alcoholic fruits and/or Psychedelics.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    8,745
    Ratings:
    +5,948
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It's the story of the first argument.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    17,537
    Ratings:
    +8,025
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    It is hard to find a cohesive message in Genesis. The issue for Adam and Eve was that they were naked. "Eve, you're naked. Oh my God, I am naked too." "This is terrible we must hide our nakedness from God!" o_O

    First, they were ok with being naked, after eating the fruit suddenly they weren't. :shrug:
    God was ok with them being naked before.

    And God knew they done something wrong because now they were ashamed of being naked.
    How are they now like God? Is God ashamed of being naked too?
     
  7. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,027
    Ratings:
    +263
    Religion:
    Disciple
    Eve and then Adam were out flanked by the crafty beast. Eve asserted her plan in place of Gods "did God really say"? That was the sin.
     
  8. whosetosay...

    whosetosay... Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2021
    Messages:
    57
    Ratings:
    +3
    Religion:
    God of Abraham
    In contrast when man put in the Garden with the tree of life he was told he could eat from any tree but the tree of knowledge. This included the tree of life. Everything was perfect including man. After mans fall he was in a fallen state. A state which meant he lost the right to eat from the tree of life, Adam did not know right from wrong before he ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge. However he understood what " do not" meant. God knew what was good and evil but he and the heavenly body of angels were without sin.

    How could Satan or Lucifer be a moral being when he is the Father of all lies and lied to Adam and Eve causing them to sin?
    Just thoughts based on the book of Genesis and the teaching it provides on the subject
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,638
    Ratings:
    +7,531
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Yes, but just to elaborate on a few points here...."The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" was NOT a tree of knowledge.This was specific knowledge. God had educated Adam quite extensively before he created a mate for him, so he did not lack knowledge per se. He knew what disobedience meant....and he knew what death was.

    What that tree represented was God's Sovereign right to determine what was good and what was evil. He had placed that knowledge in his own jurisdiction. If you look at the human experience from that point on, you will see that humans are really lousy at determining good from evil....sometime they both look the same.

    The lesson here was that no one knows better than our Creator what is good for us. If the humans had simply obeyed that one command and refused to abuse their free will as satan had done, we would not be in this mess.....Christ would never have had to come into the world to redeem us, and Adam and his wife would still be here marveling at all their progeny. Only disobedience brought death, if they had obeyed, they would have lived forever....in perfect surroundings with no evil ever entering their lives. The tree of life was a guarantee of never dying even in mortal flesh. But once they had sinned, access to that tree was denied and death came to all of Adam's offspring.

    Interesting that satan was actually a cherub in the garden of Eden. (Angels that are usually placed in a guardianship capacity, as seen when God stationed a cherub to guard the way to the tree of life after their defection and eviction from the garden.) This explains his presence there. It also explains how he calculated his moves after observing the blossoming relationship between the man and his new mate. It is why he targeted the woman and not the man. Adam was older and more educated than she was. By tempting the woman to take the fruit (by lying to her) he hoped to get the man to join her, (dividing his loyalties) thereby separating both of them from their Creator so that he could get their worship for himself. When he told her she could be like God....he really meant that he wanted to be like God. He gave himself away when he tried to tempt Jesus to do an act of worship to him after his baptism....but Jesus refused. Adam could have too.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,638
    Ratings:
    +7,531
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    They were innocent in the beginning and a knowledge of good and evil was placed in God's hands. They did not know evil and would never have known it, because that knowledge was to stay with God. He would only have brought good things into their lives. But once that knowledge was stolen from God and became part of their knowledge, the first thing that became apparent was that bad thoughts concerning their nakedness were now overtaking their thinking. Sin had them thinking immoral thoughts and the foreign feeling of shame. They tried to cover their reproductive parts but that was not enough....God clothed them in long garments of skin.

    Sexual conduct featured prominently in God's laws to Israel. It was quite detailed because abuse of the sex organs gets to the very core of the sanctity of life itself. It was never supposed to be viewed as 'dirty'. Intimacy in marriage was supposed to be a natural act of love and commitment. Now it had been ruined.

    They became "like God" knowing good and evil for themselves, but sin now made it difficult to remain innocent in their thoughts......and thoughts as we know, when we dwell on them, they can become actions. (James 1:13-15)

    Think of all the swear words you know and how many of them relate to immoral sexual activity or unclean bodily functions. Where do you think these things come from....and are common in all languages....?
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,892
    Ratings:
    +4,754
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    In the Garden story in Genesis there's no mention of the fall of man, sin, original sin, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer, or anything along those lines,

    The ONLY reason God kicks them out is to stop them from becoming immortal hence gods like [him].

    And God doesn't say Man has become one of us, [he] says LEST Man become like one of us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,027
    Ratings:
    +263
    Religion:
    Disciple
    The Crafty Beast is already fallen when Adam and Eve arrive on a previously populated world. He's condemned for misleading Eve.
    Eve had knowledge of Gods will, "did God really say", then choses otherwise. That's a sin. As a result Adam and Eve are no longer able to use the tree of life which would sustain their immortality indefinitely. (Mortal death was specific to Adam and Eve).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,892
    Ratings:
    +4,754
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    How, specifically, did he mislead Eve?
    It can't be a sin ─ at the time she ate the fruit, she had no knowledge of good and evil, so was incapable of forming an intention to do wrong, so was incapable of sin.

    The same is true of Adam.

    And I take it you'd agree that Eve did a good thing, bringing humans knowledge of good and evil, yes? It would be a massive injustice to blame her for such a benefit.

    Or do you think it's a pity we ever figured that out?
    Nothing in the story suggests that Adam or Eve had ever used the fruit of the tree of life. The express and only reason they were expelled was so that they never could do so.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    8,745
    Ratings:
    +5,948
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Is this from scripture?
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    8,745
    Ratings:
    +5,948
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Maybe so , maybe not :)

    If you look carefully at the text, Eve's understanding of the law was, "don't eat and don't touch" in that specific order. However, she didn't eat and touch, she touched and then ate. (Genesis 3:6) Reversing the order is a silly loophole if God's intention was simply, "Don't eat the fruit". But, if the judgement is based on what Eve said while answering the serpent's question, then it's possible Eve did not intentionally rebel against God.
     
  16. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,027
    Ratings:
    +263
    Religion:
    Disciple
    By the time the Israelites appropriated the Adam story from Mesopotamian lore it was quite old and passed through many generations and cultures.

    We can extrapolate this, Two adults of great importance to an ancient period, Adam ad Eve, appeared suddenly in history as full grown educated adults able to converse with a fallen celestial being. Eating fruit didn't alter the course of history to be sure.

    In my theology Eve mated with someone she wasn't supposed to as part of her own little plan of world saving. The result was Cain, who would become a constant reminder of the actual "sin". Able taunted his 1/2 brother who preferred the agrarian lifestyle. One day Cain had enough and wacked him! It was decided that Cain should move on which he did in search of his real fathers people, the Nodites in the "Land of Nod". There he found a wife and a city.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,027
    Ratings:
    +263
    Religion:
    Disciple
    There is a bigger story obviously.
     
  18. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,414
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    Faithful Jesus believer
    Satan isn’t the same as Lucifer. Satan is the devil, Lucifer is a fallen angel. God says he has become as one of us to know of good and evil, so God is either a hypocrite, or He is the father of Lucifer. The fallen angel is knowledge, while hate , and war are good and evil, thus you have knowledge of good and evil.
     
    #18 MonkeyFire, Feb 25, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,638
    Ratings:
    +7,531
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    From the Tanakh...

    Genesis ch 2...
    "7 And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul. זוַיִּ֩יצֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה:
    8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden from the east, and He placed there the man whom He had formed. חוַיִּטַּ֞ע יְהֹוָ֧ה אֱלֹהִ֛ים גַּן־בְּעֵ֖דֶן מִקֶּ֑דֶם וַיָּ֣שֶׂם שָׁ֔ם אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֖ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר יָצָֽר:

    9 And the Lord God caused to sprout from the ground every tree pleasant to see and good to eat, and the Tree of Life in the midst of the garden, and the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. טוַיַּצְמַ֞ח יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהִים֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה כָּל־עֵ֛ץ נֶחְמָ֥ד לְמַרְאֶ֖ה וְט֣וֹב לְמַֽאֲכָ֑ל וְעֵ֤ץ הַֽחַיִּים֙ בְּת֣וֹךְ הַגָּ֔ן וְעֵ֕ץ הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע. . . .

    15 Now the Lord God took the man, and He placed him in the Garden of Eden to work it and to guard it. טווַיִּקַּ֛ח יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֑ם וַיַּנִּחֵ֣הוּ בְגַן־עֵ֔דֶן לְעָבְדָ֖הּ וּלְשָׁמְרָֽהּ:
    16 And the Lord God commanded man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat. טזוַיְצַו֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֔ים עַל־הָֽאָדָ֖ם לֵאמֹ֑ר מִכֹּ֥ל עֵֽץ־הַגָּ֖ן אָכֹ֥ל תֹּאכֵֽל:
    17 But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die." יזוּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֨עַת֙ ט֣וֹב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּי֛וֹם אֲכָלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת:. . . .

    19 And the Lord God formed from the earth every beast of the field and every fowl of the heavens, and He brought [it] to man to see what he would call it, and whatever the man called each living thing, that was its name. יטוַיִּ֩צֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָ֗ה כָּל־חַיַּ֤ת הַשָּׂדֶה֙ וְאֵת֙ כָּל־ע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם וַיָּבֵא֙ אֶל־הָ֣אָדָ֔ם לִרְא֖וֹת מַה־יִּקְרָא־ל֑וֹ וְכֹל֩ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִקְרָא־ל֧וֹ הָֽאָדָ֛ם נֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּ֖ה ה֥וּא שְׁמֽוֹ:
    20 And man named all the cattle and the fowl of the heavens and all the beasts of the field, but for man, he did not find a helpmate opposite him. כוַיִּקְרָ֨א הָֽאָדָ֜ם שֵׁמ֗וֹת לְכָל־הַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּלְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם וּלְכֹ֖ל חַיַּ֣ת הַשָּׂדֶ֑ה וּלְאָדָ֕ם לֹֽא־מָצָ֥א עֵ֖זֶר כְּנֶגְדּֽוֹ:"


    If God allowed Adam to name every beast and foul....Adam would have had to observe these creatures in order to give them appropriate names. There is no way that the Genesis "days" were 24 hour periods. That exercise would have been a lengthy and extensive education all by itself, and this was all before God created his mate.

    "And man said, "This time, it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called ishah (woman) because this one was taken from ish (man)." כגוַיֹּ֘אמֶר֘ הָֽאָדָם֒ זֹ֣את הַפַּ֗עַם עֶ֚צֶם מֵֽעֲצָמַ֔י וּבָשָׂ֖ר מִבְּשָׂרִ֑י לְזֹאת֙ יִקָּרֵ֣א אִשָּׁ֔ה כִּ֥י מֵאִ֖ישׁ לֻֽקֳחָה־זֹּֽאת:
    24Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. כדעַל־כֵּן֙ יַֽעֲזָב־אִ֔ישׁ אֶת־אָבִ֖יו וְאֶת־אִמּ֑וֹ וְדָבַ֣ק בְּאִשְׁתּ֔וֹ וְהָי֖וּ לְבָשָׂ֥ר אֶחָֽד:
    25Now they were both naked, the man and his wife, but they were not ashamed. כהוַיִּֽהְי֤וּ שְׁנֵיהֶם֙ עֲרוּמִּ֔ים הָֽאָדָ֖ם וְאִשְׁתּ֑וֹ וְלֹ֖א יִתְבּשָֽׁשׁוּ:"


    They were not "ashamed" because no evil had been introduced into their lives. God had kept that knowledge to himself, and if they had obeyed their Creator, no evil would ever have entered their experience.

    I am sure that not many people really understand how drastically their lives changed from the day on....what it was that they lost for themselves and their future children. God did, and he had the solution already mapped out.

    God will never interfere with our free willed choices other than to warn us of bad consequences for our actions. Once an action has been carried out, then he will respond with a way to gain a good long term outcome.
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    8,745
    Ratings:
    +5,948
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Thank you, but, I'm looking for scripture that supports God educating Adam. See below:

     
Loading...