The Fallacy that Jesus said what is written in the gospels

[Colt]

There's lots of good wisdom in the red-letter sayings of Jesus. It's not really important who said it as long as it got said and recorded. Much of the wisdom in the gospels can be found in other holy books. Love your neighbor was said in different words long before Jesus but the idea remains of returning love for hate.

“Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy, Be friendly to your enemy.”

- Akkadian Councils of Wisdom (from the ancient Babylonian civilization that existed two millennia before Jesus was born)

“Shame on him who strikes, greater shame on him who strikes back. Let us live happily, not hating those who hate us. Let us therefore overcome anger by kindness, evil by good, falsehood by truth. Do not hurt others in ways that would be hurtful to yourself.”

- Buddhist wisdom (written centuries before Jesus was born)

More Buddhist Wisdom
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

- The Dhammapada

Return love for hatred. Otherwise, when a great hatred is reconciled, some of it will surely remain. How can this end in goodness? Therefore the sage holds to the left hand of an agreement but does not expect what the other holder ought to do. Regard your neighborʼs gain as your own and your neighborʼs loss as your own loss. Whoever is self-centered cannot have the love of others.
- Taoist wisdom (written centuries before Jesus was born)

There's lots of good wisdom in the red-letter sayings of Jesus. It's not really important who said it as long as it got said and recorded. Much of the wisdom in the gospels can be found in other holy books. Love your neighbor was said in different words long before Jesus but the idea remains of returning love for hate.

“Do not return evil to your adversary; Requite with kindness the one who does evil to you, Maintain justice for your enemy, Be friendly to your enemy.”

- Akkadian Councils of Wisdom (from the ancient Babylonian civilization that existed two millennia before Jesus was born)

“Shame on him who strikes, greater shame on him who strikes back. Let us live happily, not hating those who hate us. Let us therefore overcome anger by kindness, evil by good, falsehood by truth. Do not hurt others in ways that would be hurtful to yourself.”

- Buddhist wisdom (written centuries before Jesus was born)

More Buddhist Wisdom
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

- The Dhammapada

Return love for hatred. Otherwise, when a great hatred is reconciled, some of it will surely remain. How can this end in goodness? Therefore the sage holds to the left hand of an agreement but does not expect what the other holder ought to do. Regard your neighborʼs gain as your own and your neighborʼs loss as your own loss. Whoever is self-centered cannot have the love of others.
- Taoist wisdom (written centuries before Jesus was born)

Sure, Jesus collated from existing thoughts and arranged those with new material like the parables. He extrapolated the idea of having a personal relationship with God from among the oppressive yoke of Judaism which added a bunch of hoops to jump through.

The writings which survive have been powerful enough to fuel the Christian religion for 2,000 years.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not sure what you mean by an example. At the Council of Nicaea in 425 CE the Christians wanted the trinity in their creed and eventually they got it. It's a whole book to give an example. Read the link below to get a capsule of the controversy:

Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I thought you said that they inserted the Trinity into the Bible. Thats the example I was asking. Not about the council of Nicaea.

 

[firedragon]

More Buddhist Wisdom
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

- The Dhammapada

Wrong translation. Keeps propping up all the time in this forum.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Wrong translation. Keeps propping up all the time in this forum.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I thought you said that they inserted the Trinity into the Bible. Thats the example I was asking. Not about the council of Nicaea.

Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible.

Yep. I know that. Thats why I asked you that question because you said "The RCC wanted the Trinity in their religion so they got it in via clever re-writings of scriptures.". So what did you mean "re-writings of scriptures"? Only the Bible is "Scripture" for the RCC. So how and where did they "re-write their scripture"?

Thats the question.

 

[firedragon]

Yes yes. That was the wrong translation of the word Avairya, and Siddhantha. It is not the Buddhist philosophy that is depicted in your translation of that passage, but the western philosophy someone imposed upon the Buddhist scripture.

Again, that passage you quoted from the Buddhist scripture is wrong in translation. I hope you understand.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Sure, Jesus collated from existing thoughts and arranged those with new material like the parables. He extrapolated the idea of having a personal relationship with God from among the oppressive yoke of Judaism which added a bunch of hoops to jump through.

The writings which survive have been powerful enough to fuel the Christian religion for 2,000 years.

I agree. It's a question of who said the stuff in those writings, Jesus or the gospel writers. If they WERE quoting Jesus where did they get their source materials for him? But if they were simply drawing on sage wisdom from various sources then it should be acknowledged it was coming from the writers of the gospels. I have no problem if people want to attribute the red-letters to Jesus as long as they understand that we haven't any evidence that there were eyewitnesses that were recording every single word of Jesus as found in the King James . This will help to cut down Bibliolatry and the excessive belief that Jesus is the only way to heaven. He's not the only way to heaven if he never spoke John 14:16. That was the product of an anonymous writer who believed Jesus was the only way to heaven and so inserted it into the gospel he was writing.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Yep. I know that. Thats why I asked you that question because you said "The RCC wanted the Trinity in their religion so they got it in via clever re-writings of scriptures.". So what did you mean "re-writings of scriptures"? Only the Bible is "Scripture" for the RCC. So how and where did they "re-write their scripture"?

Thats the question.

That's not true. The RCC has tons of dogmatic writings of Augustine and others.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Yes yes. That was the wrong translation of the word Avairya, and Siddhantha. It is not the Buddhist philosophy that is depicted in your translation of that passage, but the western philosophy someone imposed upon the Buddhist scripture.

Again, that passage you quoted from the Buddhist scripture is wrong in translation. I hope you understand.

Okay, thanks for correcting me.

 

[firedragon]

That's not true. The RCC has tons of dogmatic writings of Augustine and others.

But they are not considered scripture.

Nevertheless, if writings of church fathers are what you considered "scripture" in that statement, still I would like to know where in the church fathers writings did they include the trinity? Dont worry mate. I am not debating you. I am just asking you to see what you are referring to.

 

[firedragon]

Okay, thanks for correcting me.

I would say that the correct translation would go like this.

"Hatred is not subdued/quenched by hatred. Only the absence of hatred may subdue/quench hatred".

They have translated avera or avairya as "love". It sounds nice for a reader but it is absolutely wrong translation, and is too shallow in my opinion.

 

[Colt]

I agree. It's a question of who said the stuff in those writings, Jesus or the gospel writers. If they WERE quoting Jesus where did they get their source materials for him? But if they were simply drawing on sage wisdom from various sources then it should be acknowledged it was coming from the writers of the gospels. I have no problem if people want to attribute the red-letters to Jesus as long as they understand that we haven't any evidence that there were eyewitnesses that were recording every single word of Jesus as found in the King James . This will help to cut down Bibliolatry and the excessive belief that Jesus is the only way to heaven. He's not the only way to heaven if he never spoke John 14:16. That was the product of an anonymous writer who believed Jesus was the only way to heaven and so inserted it into the gospel he was writing.

I’ve never had to struggle with Biblical inerrancy. It’s as imperfect as we should expect it to be all things considered.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I’ve never had to struggle with Biblical inerrancy. It’s as imperfect as we should expect it to be all things considered.

You're a step ahead of a lot of Christians who believe the Bible is God's perfect inerrant word even though I've showed them this:

50,000 Errors and Biblical contradictions

 

[Colt]

You're a step ahead of a lot of Christians who believe the Bible is God's perfect inerrant word even though I've showed them this:

50,000 Errors and Biblical contradictions

yes, I know, its a very frustrating thing for all of us. God would not deprive us of his intended purpose of having to seek and find truth on our own. That would be doing our homework for us. It amazing that even those who lived with Jesus in person STILL had to live by faith due to his remarkable anonymity.

 

[pearl]

There is nothing specifically Jewish in the teachings of Jesus and he does not in any way try to tell Jewish people to reform other than to not listen to hypocrites (in positions of religious authority) who only make a show of their piety withouth actually practising spirituality.

Not to reform, but to renew, restore, which is illustrated by your very example as found in the Gospels as He cites the hypocrisy of the religious authority, the unnecessary burdens etc.

His teachings have a slightly noticeable Jewish setting but other than that they are very universal and could be called plain mysticism (or tantra = practical spirituality).

I have no doubt the Jesus of the Gospels was a mystic.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I have no doubt the Jesus of the Gospels was a mystic.

I have no doubt the Jesus of the Gospels was a mythic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're a step ahead of a lot of Christians who believe the Bible is God's perfect inerrant word even though I've showed them this:

50,000 Errors and Biblical contradictions

I like this useful source. I could not find it for some time since the original website went down but someone had copied it and put it up on his own:

BibViz Project - Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized

 

[Quagmire]

Dogknox, with all due respect there are NO letters extant written about Jesus and his words. The first thing that surfaces that is recognized by scholars are the 7 authentic epistles by Paul and he is writing 25-35 years after the crucifixion . . .

Actually no. Cross referencing some of the events Josephus documented in Antiquities with some of the events that were supposed to have occurred during Jesus's ministry according to the Gospels, the most reasonable year, if you're going to pick one, would be 36 CE.

The Epistles of Paul were supposed to have been written between 50 and 56 CE.

So we're actually talking about a time span of 14 to 20 years.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Actually no. Cross referencing some of the events Josephus documented in Antiquities with some of the events that were supposed to have occurred during Jesus's ministry according to the Gospels, the most reasonable year, if you're going to pick one, would be 36 CE.

The Epistles of Paul were supposed to have been written between 50 and 56 CE.

So we're actually talking about a time span of 14 to 20 years.

Nooo, we're talking a span of 20 to 26 years. And he was still writing in 63 CE.