The Faith of a Child

[Fish and Bread]

For a young child, faith is usually about prayers that are akin to conversing with a friend, about singing fun songs to a loving God, and following very simple rules of ethicals (Don't lie, don't steal, don't hit your friends for no reason, help the poor, etc..). When one gets to be an adult, it gets to be a lot more complicated, and for many religion no longer brings joy and humility, but a sense of pain or of arrogance. It becomes about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, whether or not we follow a lot of controversial rules about things like when and with whom and how to make love (and the effect thereof on our immortal souls), whether who go to the right church and how often,etc.. Yet, oftentimes the God of our childhood seems to endorse many of the latter things and if we find ourselves a new God, we lose the God we grew up with, if we can even make ourselves believe in another.

I wonder if there's a path back to what we lost without compromising our traditions and what we believe to be the truth.

What do you all think?

 

[Melody]

For a young child, faith is usually about prayers that are akin to conversing with a friend, about singing fun songs to a loving God, and following very simple rules of ethicals (Don't lie, don't steal, don't hit your friends for no reason, help the poor, etc..). When one gets to be an adult, it gets to be a lot more complicated

Only because we make it more complicated. Prayers are conversation and don't have to be these hugely formal prayers you hear when people pray out loud. I talk to God (and hopefully listen) all day long. There's rarely a time that I'm not singing along with one of my inspirational CD's and I do tend to follow very simple rules of ethics. Thanks to NetDoc, I have been reminded of the two greatest commandments which have resolved many of the other questions I've had in regards to dealing and living in man's world.

 

[Karl R]

For a young child, faith is usually about prayers that are akin to conversing with a friend, about singing fun songs to a loving God, and following very simple rules of ethicals (Don't lie, don't steal, don't hit your friends for no reason, help the poor, etc..). When one gets to be an adult, it gets to be a lot more complicated,

In the movie "Dogma", there's a wonderful analogy comparing faith to a glass of water. When we're small, it doesn't take much faith to fill the glass. As we get older, the glass gets larger, and the same amount of faith won't fulfill us. Therefore, we periodically need to renew our faith in order to fill the glass.

If this analogy is correct, there's no way to simply go back. We have changed, and our faith needs to change to accommodate that.

and for many religion no longer brings joy and humility, but a sense of pain or of arrogance.

I don't see this as coming from religion. My mother is one of the most joyless and judgemental christians I know. Without religion, she would be a joyless and judgemental non-christian. She brings that attitude to christianity; christianity doesn't bring it to her.

It becomes about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell,

People are scared of the unknown. People want to know that death is something we don't have to fear. Therefore, there's a strong human need to understand what will happen to us after we die.

People also need to believe that they're right, which almost always leads them to believe other people are wrong.

Ultimately we should come to the realization that we don't have all the answers, we can't have all the answers, and we shouldn't waste our energy worrying about things that our outside of our control.

Of course, that's a lot more easily said then done, particularly the "not worrying" part. I struggle with it occasionally, and most people seem to worry constantly about things they can't control.

whether or not we follow a lot of controversial rules about things like when and with whom and how to make love (and the effect thereof on our immortal souls),

I disagree with people on both sides of this argument.

Why bring souls into the discussion of sexuality? There are demonstratable psychological consequences (to ourselves or others) for certain types of sexual behavior. There's a demonstrable impact to the development of relationships based on when and how sex becomes a factor in the relationship.

My moral code became a lot more strict a little over a decade ago. I was "breaking" a lot of the "moral laws" of christianity, and I started to discover that most of them had real consequences that I had been unable to predict.

Yet, oftentimes the God of our childhood seems to endorse many of the latter things

You can always go out and learn the hard way why a lot of those rules exist. It's not the easiest way to go through life, but you will end up with a better answer than "Because god says so."

and if we find ourselves a new God, we lose the God we grew up with, if we can even make ourselves believe in another.

Or you can recognize that your understanding of god was incomplete (and still is incomplete, and will probably always be incomplete). In that case, you're not losing god or changing gods. You're just getting to know god better.

I wonder if there's a path back to what we lost without compromising our traditions and what we believe to be the truth.

We mature, and things change. There is no path back. However, there is a path forward that we can follow that will allow us to retain much of the joy and wonder of youth without compromising the truth.

I won't promise that it's an easy path, though.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I don't see this as coming from religion. My mother is one of the most joyless and judgemental christians I know. Without religion, she would be a joyless and judgemental non-christian. She brings that attitude to christianity; christianity doesn't bring it to her.

That's a really interesting observation. Definitely food for thought. Thank you for sharing it.

Why bring souls into the discussion of sexuality? There are demonstratable psychological consequences (to ourselves or others) for certain types of sexual behavior. There's a demonstrable impact to the development of relationships based on when and how sex becomes a factor in the relationship.

My moral code became a lot more strict a little over a decade ago. I was "breaking" a lot of the "moral laws" of christianity, and I started to discover that most of them had real consequences that I had been unable to predict.

You can always go out and learn the hard way why a lot of those rules exist. It's not the easiest way to go through life, but you will end up with a better answer than "Because god says so."

I see what you're saying and do agree that most of the moral laws of Christianity do make sense to a degree even independent of fear of God or perhaps even the existence of God, in most cases. The problem, I think, is the exceptions to the rule.

What about the person that for whatever reason is not able to find a spouse due to various circumstances? Is it really best that such a person live a life of complete celibacy? It's one thing to say be celibate until marriage, especially when people were marrying in their late teens or early twenties, but it's another to say that because one can't find a spouse, one should in essence become a enuch. And there are always those people out there who want but can't find spouses, contrary to the popular mythology. I've had friends who've spoken of people they've known in their 60s and 70s who were never married despite their best efforts.

In my case, due to health problems, I'll probably never have an income that can support me and always am stuck at kind of the razor's edge of society getting by through various unusual arrangements (And could easily one day be homeless) -- and needless to say no one is too keen on supporting a husband, when I dated seriously and marriage was discussed there was often eventually a suspicion that I was in it for financial advantage. Even the people who believed me and fell in love would tend to back out at the last minute, in part do to the potential stress a marriage would entail and in part due to pressure from friends and family who said they were too good for me. It happened enough times that despite my best efforts, the conclusion was obvious that most likely no one would want to marry me. Even the most compassionate just aren't interested in a situation like that, even with someone they love, not after due consideration of the course of many months (Though some initially think it would be alright, before they really think it through and are faced with the pending reality of it).

So, for someone like me, a real adherence to Christian moral law probably means eternal celibacy. After many years of trying and making finding a wife my top priority, because marriage was and is a real dream for me, I think I'm totally cut out for it, I reluctantly have begun to resign myself to something that should have been fairly obvious in the first place, the odds of it aren't good. What I can occasionally find are casual relationships, though, because people don't always mind as much dating someone in a situation like mine if they're temporary and don't involve living together or whatnot. However, to live out Christianity as I see it, that kind of thing wouldn't be allowed.

Granted, my situation is an exception, but such exceptions are not unheard of. There are people who are disfigured or have really off-beat personalities that probably won't find a spouses for those reasons. Another similar situation that applies to more people might be the homosexuals, who most Christian traditions say must remain celibate their entire lives.

So, yeah, Christian moral law does make sense in a lot of cases, but there are exceptions who are really left out in the cold. For someone in a position like mine, it almost feels like God has given me the middle finger, in essence leaving a strong desire for companionship of a romantic and sexual nature, but making me one of the few people that, if I live according to his will, won't have that sort of thing again as long as I live. It's bad enough that I can't marry, which is really what I want, but to not even feel a woman's touch again? I have a real problem with that and it's probably going to always keep me outside the church, unless I reach my deathbed or an age where I no longer mind celibacy from then forward.

Of course, this issue exposes larger problems I have with the imposition of authority on tons of issues with the threat of hellfire backing it up. They'd have to be cleared up too. But I won't go there on this thread.

 

[michel]

For a young child, faith is usually about prayers that are akin to conversing with a friend, about singing fun songs to a loving God, and following very simple rules of ethicals (Don't lie, don't steal, don't hit your friends for no reason, help the poor, etc..). When one gets to be an adult, it gets to be a lot more complicated, and for many religion no longer brings joy and humility, but a sense of pain or of arrogance. It becomes about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, whether or not we follow a lot of controversial rules about things like when and with whom and how to make love (and the effect thereof on our immortal souls), whether who go to the right church and how often,etc.. Yet, oftentimes the God of our childhood seems to endorse many of the latter things and if we find ourselves a new God, we lose the God we grew up with, if we can even make ourselves believe in another.

I wonder if there's a path back to what we lost without compromising our traditions and what we believe to be the truth.

What do you all think?

It becomes about who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, whether or not we follow a lot of controversial rules about things like when and with whom and how to make love (and the effect thereof on our immortal souls), whether who go to the right church and how often,etc.

Not to me, it doesn't.

Of course, the child is unencumbered by all the dreadful traits we have to take on board, as we grow.

School brings along with it competition, the need to succeed, the need to cram our heads so full of material facts, discipline. The media fills us with greed, and envy (if we allow it to). Our material world destroys that unique wonderful link we had, as babies, when we saw clearly.

Now our eyes are shuttered; we are choosy about what we look at. We are full of pre-conceptions, full of the insiduous pre-programmed responses that society has somehow driven into us...................

I wonder if there's a path back to what we lost without compromising our traditions and what we believe to be the truth.

Of course there is (but there's a hefty price to pay); you can be that child, he is still within you. meditate, through the layers of consumerism, of competition off your shoulders and look at nature once again................did yousee that butterfly ? Of course not, you were so busy looking at your watch, thinking about booking your car in for the next service; whatever...........

But you can re-awaken that child; the price I mentioned ? You'll be looked down on by most people you know, you'll be termed 'weird' by your work companions. Who cares ? I don't any more. So who cares if people whisper behind my back ? neighbours, all running about like headless chickens; they are the first in the queue.

Inside me, I have resurected that child; he looks at the world in wonder. He can stand for minutes at a time, watching the bloom on a tree, seeing the beauty that surrounds us all, instead of the adult's gaze on the litter, the scowls on people's faces. He is naive, he is open to being usurped, but better that than to join the lemmings rushing for the edge of the cliff.