The Evolution of Hallucinogenic Plants

[Rational Agnostic]

Any evolutionary biologists have any ideas as to why natural selection favors some naturally occurring plants and mushrooms to have hallucinogenic properties when ingested by animals? What evolutionary advantage would there be for a plant to evolve in such a way as to make animals who consume it have vivid hallucinations of other-wordly beings, or sensations of being in other dimensions and/or experiencing feelings that are completely foreign to experience in the natural world? Poisonous plants make sense to me....plants gradually evolved to be poisonous so as to ward off predators. However, many hallucinogenic plants (such as "magic" mushrooms) are essentially harmless to many species that consume them. So, what could possibly cause such a strange trait to evolve?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Considering the draw of hallucinogenic plants for certain people. Maybe a number of way out homo sapiens had evolved a taste for it and refined its properties.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You basically hinted at the most likely answer in your OP. It's random, luck-of-the-draw physiological response to naturally occurring plant-chemistry. And the reason I say you hinted at this in your OP is because you mention that some plants we know to have these types of effects on humans have no effect on some other species of animal that consume them.

I was going to raise the idea of catnip. No effect on humans... no effect on other animals (that I know of), but drives cats nuts. It's like trying random skeleton keys in an old lock... if one of them actually works out of a large group of keys you're trying, you shouldn't be too surprised.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

The psychotropic chemicals likely played some role in the natural metabolism and function of the plants, and maybe still do. The byproduct of being an incomplete poison increases the likelihood of survival for the plants because MOST animals know better than consuming something that makes them sick...really, the hallucinations, etc., make the affected animals less likely to survive and reproduce.

Also, not all animals are subject to the 'psychotropic' (or other poisonous) plants that affect humans, and vice versa: cats respond to catnip, humans do not; poison ivy doesn't even affect all humans, but many animals can eat the leaves, etc., without any kind of reaction; many animals seek out the bark of willow trees, apparently for the painkilling effects; and so on...

Edit: Damn! Mote beat me...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Edit: Damn! Mote beat me...

You touched on the poison/toxin idea more so than I did... which is a good point. As an example, we consume alcohol mostly because of the effect it has on us... but it is the waste product (like urine) of bacteria consuming the carbohydrates of the substrate. Bacteria feasting their brains out and pissing all over the place ends up producing a toxin that, consumed in relatively mild quantities, gives humans a "buzz." And obviously, consuming too much kills you. There needn't be any "evolutionary" explanation for something like this. Changing your blood chemistry is bound to have some effect - and for every toxic substance you find that has an effect that can be deemed pleasurable, we'll find plenty of others that simply make us throw up... or worse.

 

[Axe Elf]

"I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth" --God (Genesis 1:29)

And presumably the mushrooms, too...

 

[David T]

Any evolutionary biologists have any ideas as to why natural selection favors some naturally occurring plants and mushrooms to have hallucinogenic properties when ingested by animals? What evolutionary advantage would there be for a plant to evolve in such a way as to make animals who consume it have vivid hallucinations of other-wordly beings, or sensations of being in other dimensions and/or experiencing feelings that are completely foreign to experience in the natural world? Poisonous plants make sense to me....plants gradually evolved to be poisonous so as to ward off predators. However, many hallucinogenic plants (such as "magic" mushrooms) are essentially harmless to many species that consume them. So, what could possibly cause such a strange trait to evolve?

This currently exists outside scientific explanation, or what by some unscientifically call random chance which actually is nonsense.

Since the question actually makes no sense in context to "evolutionary advantage" that points to either the answer lay somewhere else or that is a concept that is either incomplete or flat wrong.

While Scientific Evolutionary narrative can be challenged the fact of life As a singular interconnected multiplicity cannot be and actually that's way way older than Darwin anyway. Sorry creationists, and intelligent designers your clueless illiterate bible readers.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

This currently exists outside scientific explanation, or what by some unscientifically call random chance which actually is nonsense.

Since the question actually makes no sense in context to "evolutionary advantage" that points to either the answer lay somewhere else or that is a concept that is either incomplete or flat wrong.

While Scientific Evolutionary narrative can be challenged the fact of life As a singular interconnected multiplicity cannot be and actually that's way way older than Darwin anyway. Sorry creationists, and intelligent designers your clueless illiterate bible readers.

Confused as to what you're trying to say. Obviously I'm not a creationist though.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

You basically hinted at the most likely answer in your OP. It's random, luck-of-the-draw physiological response to naturally occurring plant-chemistry. And the reason I say you hinted at this in your OP is because you mention that some plants we know to have these types of effects on humans have no effect on some other species of animal that consume them.

I was going to raise the idea of catnip. No effect on humans... no effect on other animals (that I know of), but drives cats nuts. It's like trying random skeleton keys in an old lock... if one of them actually works out of a large group of keys you're trying, you shouldn't be too surprised.

Thanks for the response. I think that's a pretty good explanation.

 

[David T]

Confused as to what you're trying to say. Obviously I'm not a creationist though.

The question is not answerable at this time by any known scientific framework at all. The molecules serve no known benefit and random mutation does not remotely come close to being relevant or even scientific for that matter. It's a topic I have, looked into and well it's interesting.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Any evolutionary biologists have any ideas as to why natural selection favors some naturally occurring plants and mushrooms to have hallucinogenic properties when ingested by animals? What evolutionary advantage would there be for a plant to evolve in such a way as to make animals who consume it have vivid hallucinations of other-wordly beings, or sensations of being in other dimensions and/or experiencing feelings that are completely foreign to experience in the natural world? Poisonous plants make sense to me....plants gradually evolved to be poisonous so as to ward off predators. However, many hallucinogenic plants (such as "magic" mushrooms) are essentially harmless to many species that consume them. So, what could possibly cause such a strange trait to evolve?

The evolutionary advantage to some of these compounds seems to be against herbivory. They are defensive. That some of the compounds are also hallucinogenic in humans is purely a chance side effect Plants produce a number of compounds that act to inhibit insect herbivores that have either no impact on us or no hallucinatory impact. We were not the selection pressure that lead to the evolution of those compounds, though many certainly have taken advantage of them.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The question is not answerable at this time by any known scientific framework at all. The molecules serve no known benefit and random mutation does not remotely come close to being relevant or even scientific for that matter. It's a topic I have, looked into and well it's interesting.

It can be answered in some instances. We know that dimboa produced by corn plants results in a reduction in damage due to European corn borer (ECB). Corn with no or low levels of dimboa are highly susceptible to ECB while those with higher levels of dimboa either have lower or no damage. While not a hallucinogen in humans, experiments that have been conducted on dimboa in corn could be modified and used on insects attacking plants containing hallucinogenic compounds and the level of damage could be compared across different levels of expression of the target compounds. One could also test the toxicity of those compounds on insects that are known pests of the respective plants to determine toxicity and spectrum. The defensive nature of these compounds does not have to be limited to insect or invertebrate pests and may just as easily have evolved to stop specific vertebrate herbivory.

It is an interesting topic and one that has been a subject of some study, though not a concerted or broad effort. I know of studies conducted on orb weaving spiders using LSD and cocaine among other compounds. Based on the results I saw, LSD has a rather dramatic impact on web construction. So, some of these compounds do impact animals that otherwise would not likely encounter them.

 

[David T]

It can be answered in some instances. We know that dimboa produced by corn plants results in a reduction in damage due to European corn borer (ECB). Corn with no or low levels of dimboa are highly susceptible to ECB while those with higher levels of dimboa either have lower or no damage. While not a hallucinogen in humans, experiments that have been conducted on dimboa in corn could be modified and used on insects attacking plants containing hallucinogenic compounds and the level of damage could be compared across different levels of expression of the target compounds. One could also test the toxicity of those compounds on insects that are known pests of the respective plants to determine toxicity and spectrum. The defensive nature of these compounds does not have to be limited to insect or invertebrate pests and may just as easily have evolved to stop specific vertebrate herbivory.

It is an interesting topic and one that has been a subject of some study, though not a concerted or broad effort. I know of studies conducted on orb weaving spiders using LSD and cocaine among other compounds. Based on the results I saw, LSD has a rather dramatic impact on web construction. So, some of these compounds do impact animals that otherwise would not likely encounter them.

I know that terrance mckenna had a theory on human development was related to ingestion of mushrooms with such compounds. I dont know if thats true and its certainly speculative at best. But speculation is fine as long as we understand that!

 

[Audie]

Any evolutionary biologists have any ideas as to why natural selection favors some naturally occurring plants and mushrooms to have hallucinogenic properties when ingested by animals? What evolutionary advantage would there be for a plant to evolve in such a way as to make animals who consume it have vivid hallucinations of other-wordly beings, or sensations of being in other dimensions and/or experiencing feelings that are completely foreign to experience in the natural world? Poisonous plants make sense to me....plants gradually evolved to be poisonous so as to ward off predators. However, many hallucinogenic plants (such as "magic" mushrooms) are essentially harmless to many species that consume them. So, what could possibly cause such a strange trait to evolve?

Probably did not evolve to do that, any more
than hickory for baseball bats.

Nicotine is an insecticide, not something evolved
to be smoked.

Getting cause, effect, "unintended" consequences a bit
mixed. We all do it.

 

[Audie]

Then there are "dream fish", and reports of
cobra bite causing hallucinations. Hippies,
take note.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I know that terrance mckenna had a theory on human development was related to ingestion of mushrooms with such compounds. I dont know if thats true and its certainly speculative at best. But speculation is fine as long as we understand that!

I wasn't familiar with McKenna and had to look him up. Sounds like an interesting person, but I would consider his thoughts on a relationship between pscyhoactive natural compounds and human evolution to be, as you say, speculation. There appears to be no evidence other than a desire to see these natural compounds play some significant role in our development.

 

[David T]

I wasn't familiar with McKenna and had to look him up. Sounds like an interesting person, but I would consider his thoughts on a relationship between pscyhoactive natural compounds and human evolution to be, as you say, speculation. There appears to be no evidence other than a desire to see these natural compounds play some significant role in our development.

I have jungs red book. And its identical to revelations which reads out like LSD. what is curious about revelations is at the end it says do not add a word or take away a word from what is written. That locks out the text from interpretation yet that is ignored.
Mckenna said of his experience with DMT psychedelics was he was visited by aliens. He communicated this and then others made the same claim. So these experiences are therefore deeply influenced by our perceptions before we ingest such compounds. And we tend to interpret and experience the effects through precondition state.

In the psychiatric psychology world the experts on such states of mind are in fact are the mentally ill. Jung is a rare instance of someone reaching prominent position in that world and experiencing psychosis at the same time. He navigated it without falling into madness. Yet today jung isnt easily understood in jungian circles and outside of that is virtually non existent.

As of now i would say relying on mentally ill people as ones expert is problematic but it sure is appealing based on making money for pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I have jungs red book. And its identical to revelations which reads out like LSD. what is curious about revelations is at the end it says do not add a word or take away a word from what is written. That locks out the text from interpretation yet that is ignored.
Mckenna said of his experience with DMT psychedelics was he was visited by aliens. He communicated this and then others made the same claim. So these experiences are therefore deeply influenced by our perceptions before we ingest such compounds. And we tend to interpret and experience the effects through precondition state.

In the psychiatric psychology world the experts on such states of mind are in fact are the mentally ill. Jung is a rare instance of someone reaching prominent position in that world and experiencing psychosis at the same time. He navigated it without falling into madness. Yet today jung isnt easily understood in jungian circles and outside of that is virtually non existent.

As of now i would say relying on mentally ill people as ones expert is problematic but it sure is appealing based on making money for pharmaceutical companies.

Individual mileage does vary and experiences differ do to many factors including the predisposition and preconceptions of those participating in their use. Even alcohol can lead to results based on the mood of the individual drinking.

I'm not well familiar with Jung, but I could see Revelations being the result of an LSD trip or even something like digitalis.

Why do aliens always visit people in trailer parks, loners on the highway and the stoned? I guess we'll never know.

We're swinging far afield on the question of the evolutionary origin of psychoactive compounds, but your points are an interesting extension of that discussion.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Then there are "dream fish", and reports of
cobra bite causing hallucinations. Hippies,
take note.

Tiny purple fishes go laughing through your fingers...

I think just getting bitten by a cobra would cause me to have hallucinations.

 

[David T]

Individual mileage does vary and experiences differ do to many factors including the predisposition and preconceptions of those participating in their use. Even alcohol can lead to results based on the mood of the individual drinking.

I'm not well familiar with Jung, but I could see Revelations being the result of an LSD trip or even something like digitalis.

Why do aliens always visit people in trailer parks, loners on the highway and the stoned? I guess we'll never know.

We're swinging far afield on the question of the evolutionary origin of psychoactive compounds, but your points are an interesting extension of that discussion.

It indeed is a very interesting topic indeed and yes we did swung away from the main topic. Sorry bout that.