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The Evidence for ID THREAD!!

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Fatmop, Apr 20, 2005.

  1. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    Well I tried to just be a spectator but you seemed to have dragged me out of my hole. Let’s get on with the fun… shall we.



    My reasons for leaving were listed. You had very little, if anything, to do with them.



    “34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." Matthew 5:34-37 NIV



    Oh… okay. So let’s work on this basis for a little bit shall we. Name one thing of the past that can be postulated without an Argument from Ignorance being stated.



    So unless reasons are presented then it is a jump? You have not invalidated his conclusions or postulated on how he got to them, thus it must be a jump? Argument from Ignorance.



    Very childish. The way things are understood as humor has not always been the same. If you think that they called them sheep and it was funny at the time you would be wrong. As far as I know this statement from the bible could have been the start of that humor. Too many people switching to Christianity; someone says “so you’re just another sheep”; a few years later the humor has been formed.



    Oh, I wasn’t able to come to grips with it. I simply came to the conclusion that stating that something is an argument from ignorance is useless since every statement about the past or future or hypothesis falls under that category in one way or another. It seems to me that it doesn’t belong here. If I am wrong in this then state a situation where it would be wrong and we can work from there.



    Do you think no one that has come to other theories besides yours understands logic?



    DNA creates DNA by using its genetic information (intelligence), thus intelligence can create DNA.



    Can you prove evolution positive, other than presenting countless theories and hypotheses about what the data shows, when the data can be interpreted just as easily in other ways.



    This is true. It has never been observed and the facts show that molecules that must be formed for life don’t “naturally” get together. They make other things, other ways. I have not seen any chemistry information that shows that the parts of life join together naturally. The fact is they hate it, the refuse it, and if they did it wouldn’t last more than a second or two; and that is only with the individual parts of it, which there are many parts that hate to form what is required for life. The molecules required would need to all be forced to join to make the correct things for life, the things would need to come together properly, and they would need to be in an environment that wouldn’t destroy them. Such conditions are absolutely unthinkable. The figures given on how probable it is for this to happen are used to say that there is a chance. The fact it that when conditions are made the same probability is always present. It doesn’t change just because there is more space, or because the same options were present in other places. If the probability is 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. then if it there are 999,999,999,999,999,999,999 tests the probability isn’t 1 in 1 in the last test. It is still 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Do you recognize this?



    Hey, that is what you guys have been doing. Isn’t that nice of you.



    No. I have not read anything that shows that the things required for life can at all form together. If you have found such data please post a link for me.



    Oh, now your speculating on how a conclusion was reached. Stick to speculating on your own mind and conclusions. Unless previously stated, what he wants and the way he comes to a conclusion can only be speculated on and thus the opinions should be kept to yourself. This is not a place for mental speculation. It is a place for discussion threw showing data and interpreting it.
     
  2. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Yes or no would be fine. You played a game with scripture and didn't answer the question posed either here (where you avoided it with verse) or there (where you abruptly left).

    Let's try it again in acordance with your biblical injunction.

    If Yes is the answer to
    If No is the answer to the above question


    As an aside, given the scripture, Bush must be from the "evil one" and an overwhemingly number of court cases too! :biglaugh:
     
  3. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    *sigh*
    It depends on what you are postulating.
    Are you trying to postulate definite and undenyable facts?
    Or are you making hypothesis that you deem to be probable and likely, but with room for alternative theories if they can present their case?
    He is quite right to postulate that it is a jump. If it isnt a jump then it should not be difficult to explain why it isnt. We are dealing with knowledge we can get to grips with here. Not past events which nobody was a witness to.
    So serious.. :rolleyes: Lighten up..
    Thats a completely different intelligence to God creating DNA from raw materials.
    The problem is you are equating DNA with a CD or Book. Seeing it as a deliberate recording of information. Try thinking of it more like a forest path. It is essentially a recording of animals walking down that route many times. There is no intent, purpose or intelligence behind it - it is just shaped by natural occurances. Recorded Information does not necessary equal intelligence.
    I would really like to hear counter theories of what the data shows. Evolution is the most likely and possible hypothesis we can generate from the data available. We therefore conclude that evolution is true until a counter hypothesis shows some strength.
    If you can show how the data proves ID likely, that would be great. We would finally be seeing some evidence to support ID and we could get into a proper debate.
    See? You are making absolute definite statements. Therefore falling under 'that' fallacy. ;) You should be saying things like 'I believe its unlikely that DNA can be produced naturally because it has yet to be shown'.
    Thats a very vague analysis. Can you be more specific? As far as im aware in chemistry elements 'prefer' certain molecular combinations to others - but under the right conditions can react with less preferred elements.
    I think we'd like to hear more about this.
    That sounds like an opinion rather than fact...
    Lets take the national lottery. The chances of a particular person winning are 14 million to 1. The chances of someone winning are much higher. Not 1 to 1 but certainly well above 50%.. dependant of course on how many people play. The more that play, the closer to 1 to 1.
    Therefore the chances do increase if there is more space and therefore more opportunity for something to occur.

    Great. Show some data and we can cease to speculate on each others thought processes.
    If you have no evidence to present to the 'Evidence for ID thread'.. then you shouldnt be posting your opinions. If you do - you can hardly blame us for speculating on how that opinion was reached.
     
  4. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    I have no way of proving God to you other than to prove his word, the Bible. If you are willing to accept some information in that area then I shall post it. Are you willing?
     
  5. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    No, not necessary, I find the bible to be highly suspect. It is open to human flaws and abuse and misinterpretation. It is a book written by highly superstitious and unknowledgeable people. If there are passages that provide some form of logical basis for ID then fine - but if your argument for ID amounts to - 'it says so in this book'.. then it really wouldnt be worth posting.

    What Id like to know what alternative interpretation of natural data you have which suggests ID as per this statement:
     
  6. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    Please be aware that in not rejecting the bible out of hand. Im aware that there is a book and in summation it says that God made everything. Theres not much point posting anything to this effect because we are all aware of this.
     
  7. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    Only to show how it was made.
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    <yawn> By the numbers: </yawn>
    1. The argumentum ad ignorantium [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false, or that it is false because it has not been proved true. A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence. [Irving M. Copi & Carl Cohen, Introduction to Logic; from Wikipedia]
    2. Name one thing of the past that can be postulated without an Argument from Ignorance being stated. [Passerby]
    3. Mozart composed music. [QED]
     
  9. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    Thank you.
    But how do you know that Mozart did it. Could he not have stollen the music he said he composed from someone else that he kept locked away for just that reason?
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    OK
    I'm sorry, but the sub-topic is Argument from Ignorance. The question is irrelevant, other than serving to futher demonstrate your ignorance of logical fallacies. Do you not agree that your argumentation might have greater credibility if you knew what you were talking about?
     
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  11. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    And I am trying to demonstrate something. Just try to prove it wrong. Are you willing to "play along"?
     
  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And you have. Thanks.
     
  13. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    You avoided the question.
    What you tried to prove is my question is irrelevent. How would you know this until you see the results of the question. Play along and you will see the point I am trying to demonstrate.
    I ask again, are you willing to play along?
     
  14. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    Passerbye.. the issue isnt whether Mozart composed that music or not.. and in attacking Deuts comment in that way you show that you didnt understand the point he was trying to make.

    Also, the link you posted.. im not going to try to tear apart an entire essay by someone else on this board here.. perhaps you could give your brief summary - what you believe and dont believe from the essay.. then we can debate and use the link as a reference. :)
     
  15. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    Ok ill play along.
    We can reasonably assume that Mozart did compose that music because there is substantial evidence supporting that claim.
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Q. Name one thing of the past that can be postulated without an Argument from Ignorance being stated.
    A. Mozart composed music.


    Game over. Rather than insisting on play time, it might be deemed far less childish to recognize that recess is over, and that its way past time for you to actually attempt to understand the fallacy you've referenced.
     
  17. Passerbye

    Passerbye Member

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    I understood the point he tried to make. I am just trying to draw it out to make another point. I am not trying to attack him. If someone else is willing to take the challenge I would be willing to accept that. I am sorry "Deut. 32.8" if it seemed like I was trying to attack you.
    My opinions on the essay are irrelevent. They would be just that... opinions. The question is what do you think of the information given, the theories presented, and why do you see it that way.
     
  18. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    I think Deut hes going to try to show you how 'Mozart composed Music' is an argument from ignorance.
     
  19. Tawn

    Tawn Active Member

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    Bah thats going to take me some time.. youll have to wait..
    However, I would ask the exact same back to you. You are trying to convince us of ID are you not?
     
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